ceiling speakers >= 10 ohms

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by kc2, Jan 29, 2009.

  1. kc2

    kc2
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    Hi can anyone point me to where I can find some compact / discrete ceiling speakers rated at 10 ohms or more (I want to use 5 of them with a Sony HTI S100 surround amp in place of the satellites that come with it). I've been googling around but can't find any


    .

    Thanks
     
  2. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    I'm assuming you are only putting one speaker on each amp channels. That is, you have a 5 channel amp, one speaker per channel, equals 5 speakers.

    If that is true, you can use any speaker in the range of 4 ohms to 16 ohms. Though realistically, you are only going to find 4 ohm, 6 ohm, and 8 ohms.

    You shouldn't have any problems using typical 6 ohm or 8 ohms speakers, unless there is something you aren't telling us?

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  3. kc2

    kc2
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    I'm not really sure as I don't have the amp yet.

    It's a Sony HTIS100 (but I don't want to use the speakers the came with it).

    The manual shows the spec as:

    Amplifier Power output (rated)
    Front L / Front R (rated): 35 W + 35 W (at 10 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 % THD)

    RMS output power (reference)
    Front L / Front R*: 50 W + 50 W (at 10 ohms, 1 kHz, 10 % THD)
    Center*: 50 W (at 10 ohms, 1 kHz, 10 % THD)
    Surround L / Surround R*: 50 W + 50 W (at 10 ohms, 1 kHz, 10 % THD)
    Subwoofer*: 100 W (at 4 ohms, 70 Hz, 10 % THD) + 100 W (at 4 ohms, 500 Hz, 10 % THD)


    I don't know what THD means, but I'm assuming it's 10 Ohms on each channel for the satellites, not 10 Ohms for the fronts combined + 10 for the centre plus 10 for the rears combined.

    Thanks for your help
     
  4. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    THD means Total Harmonic Distortion, and it is usually closer to 0.05%.

    It is unusual for an amp to have it's power rated with 10 ohms speakers, but that only tells you the impedance that the amp was tested at, and not necessarily the impedance of the speakers themselves. For example, many amps are tested at 8 ohms, but are used with 4 ohm speakers.

    In your case, you have very little power available, and since the amps are built into the Sub, you must use the Sub.

    You can probably get by with 8 ohms speakers, and maybe in a pinch, you could get by with 6 ohms speakers, but I don't think 4 ohm are going to cut in on a limited amp like this.

    Don't want to burst your bubble, but a quick check of the Internet indicates that this system sells for nearly £400. You could have done a lot better than this for the same money buying separates, and for £100 to £150 more, you could have had a very impressive entry level system.

    For example, you could have had this for less money and gotten both a better amp and better speakers -

    ONKYO TXSR506 & TANNOY SFX5.1/7.1 HOME CINEMA SYSTEM SIZZLER - available from Superfi UK

    For a little more money, you could have had this impressive entry level system -

    SONY BDPS350 BLU-RAY/DVD PLAYER, STRDG820 AV RECEIVER & WHARFEDALE 9HCP SYSTEM SIZZLER - available from Superfi UK

    If you dump the BluRay player, you can drop the price to about £500.

    Still, you have what you have, and we work from there.

    It is difficult to know what will work on such a limited amp. ALSO, we need your budget and expectations for the project?

    I'm curious why you would spend £400 on a system if you didn't like the speakers? Perhaps there are details you haven't revealed yet.

    In any case, we definitely need a budget before we can recommend anything. As to 10 ohm speakers, you simply are not going to find any. You'll have to make due with 8 ohm speakers.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  5. ARNOLD AKIEN

    ARNOLD AKIEN
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    I've never been altogether sure of why people should WANT to use ceiling mounted speakers for Home Cinema Systems. If your purpose is Public Address in an Auditorium or a Lecture Theater then Ceiling Speakers do make sense in a confined space where Audience Numbers and Limited Space MEET in a horrible muddle. :)

    In a Home Cinema .. where Special Effects and Dialog RULE then having the speakers strive to shove the Sound down as well as out toward the audience just doesn't make much sense in any other terms than the demands of Interior Decoration.

    Consider .. You are an audience .. you are seated ? ..and the sound comes from .. Where ? Above your Head ? Does that seem to make sense to you? Sense in terms of say a Space Ship zooming from behind you toward the screen or Speech coming from that screen ?

    If you still want Ceiling Speakers then here after is as good as any where but you Really do need to have a mixture of Wall and Ceiling if you want an Invisible system that will work as a Home Cinema and you do have to be prepared to PAY for it.

    But, still , LOOK HERE ...

    Inceiling speaker Hot deals from Creative Audio

    And also Here ...


    KEF Ci Series - in-wall / in-ceiling speakers


    " Increasingly, customers are turning their backs on conventional speakers and using KEF's fabulous new in-ceiling / in-wall speakers for their Home Cinema or Stereo systems, instead. They're a wonderful solution, because they disappear into the room's decor, thus achieving the holy grail of matrimonial Hi-Fi - invisible speakers! The potential improvement in 'domestic harmony' shouldn't be underestimated, particularly if you're trying to sneak a 5 speaker system past 'the management'!

    What's changed in recent years is that this ultra-sleek 'flush' look can now be achieved without a huge drop in performance, thanks to a combination of modern technology and a bit of jiggery-pokery. The first thing to do is to buy one of the very latest in-ceiling designs - KEF's brand new Ci range is a prime example. Then the trick is to go larger in size and to spend a bit more on in-ceiling speakers than you would have done with a conventional box design. For example, most Home Cinema Sub / Sat packages are based on 4 inch drivers, with a pair of speakers usually costing around the £200 mark. If you want to duplicate this level of performance with an in-ceiling speaker, simply go for 6 inch drivers and spend 50% more (in other words, buy a KEF Ci160.2). Going bigger is no great hardship, because these speakers are pretty much invisible anyway, and spending a bit more money is worth it, when you consider how much you will have already spent making your lounge look beautiful. Are you really going to risk ruining it all by fitting a set of ugly speakers? "

    Whether it will work or not does rather depend upon your room and its Shape, size, Furniture and furbishments .... and few modern living rooms are capable of mounting 5.1 surround sound through ceiling mounted speakers at a modest price.


    I hope that you have LOTS of Money ? :devil:

    See how B and W do it ....

    http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=770


    " For some people, the mere sight of a speaker, no matter how well designed, is enough to cause palpitations. It's for precisely this clientele that we have pursued the notion of ‘invisible' custom installation loudspeakers, which can be carefully hidden into walls or ceilings and, where necessary, disguised to be as hard-to-detect as possible. "



    Best Wishes,

    Arnold.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  6. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Again, don't mean to sound so negative, but have you actually bought this amp/speaker combination yet? Is there any way you can cancel the order?

    Since you are going to buy new speakers anyway, why buy this particular amp/speaker all-in-one combination? For the same £400 you could have a fantastic AV amp, and attach you new in-wall/in-ceiling speakers to that.

    Also, keep in mind that if the speakers are in the wall and ceiling, so is the wiring. To get the wiring in the walls and ceiling, that means tearing out or tearing up the wall/ceiling. If your are handy at do-it-yourself, this can be a tolerable project from the perspective of cost. But if you have to hire people to come in, tear up the walls and ceiling, install the wiring and speakers, then repair the walls and ceiling, it is not going to be cheap.

    If your house has plaster-over-lath, count on this being an expensive mess. If you have standard modern 'sheetrock', this can easily be repair, and would therefore cost less.

    Even the direction of your ceiling rafters can affect the cost. If they rafters run the length of the room, the installing the wiring is not that hard. If they rafter run across the room, or the path of the wire, then it gets more complex and more costly.

    It is easy to picture speakers in the ceiling, but you need to consider how those speaker are going to get there, and what it is going to take to wire them.

    You could buy three or four very nice home cinema systems, or one really great system for roughly what this is going to cost you.

    Not having any details on you room or you remodeling intent, I'm inclined to agree with ARNOLD AKIEN, all five speakers in the ceiling is a marginal idea. It could be done, and would work, but it would be far from optimal.

    A better idea would be to put the front three (left, right, center) in the wall near the TV or projection screen, and it would then be reasonable to put the Surround speakers in the ceiling. That could actually work pretty well.

    Now, to the final point, once the speakers are in the walls/ceiling, they are there for good. You can't re-arrange the furniture or move the TV because the orientation to the built-in speakers can't change.

    I would only recommend built-in speakers for someone who has a large dedicated listening room.

    Again, sorry to be so negative, but you need to understand the full implications of the choices you are making, so that you are indeed making knowledgeable and informed choices.

    Many people do what your are planning, but it is no small task.

    Perhaps, if you started with a description of your system, your budget, your room, your goals...more or less a complete conceptual run down of the project, we could help advise you on a better way to approach it.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2009
  7. kc2

    kc2
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    Steve, Arnold, thanks for your candid responses. To clarify...

    "For some people, the mere sight of a speaker..." ;-) I love technology, but I just don't like things to look technological - To give you an idea, in my kitchen the speakers are driven by a SI T-Amp re-housed in 4"x2"x2.5"walnut box that was originally a parmesan gratings box, sourced from Norcia in Italy(!)

    Nothing a plasterer can't cover up for a £100.

    Bubble firmly intact thanks. This is a kids room set-up, and my objective is reasonable sound + simplicity, rather than high-end sound. (Our living room has a good-enough Gallo-based arrangement & an Sanyo amp with all the cabling beneath the floors). By simplicity I mean, few boxes, as small as possible, but not as poor in the mid-range as Bose (I had some of these as a young man but my wife always complained she couldn't hear properly people speaking in films, etc.).

    There's going to be a near silent custom PC in the room using a hoojum cube chassis that will double as the kid's web surfing PC & the media centre, networked to a NAS upstairs & hooked up to an Optoma HD 65 projector. The sound out will be optical 5.1. I'm not looking for a rack of components. Ethernet & speaker cabling is already in in the ceiling void in 5 places, but so far only pilot holes have been cut.

    Since the audience is my kids & their friends, they're frequently not seated & tend to flop around all over the place!

    I considered the KEF system of hiding the sub in the ceiling, but it's not really a surround set-up, but actually it's a small / unobtrusive amp that seems harder to find. (The only pieces of furniture in the room are sofas & an antique bureau (with a compact LCD display that belive it or not hides in the folded-up bureau when not in use. The Hoojum cube on the floor lookis like a white box about 25cm square.) The floor space (about 6m2) is often used for scalextric & sometimes even judo mats are placed on it for a couple of weeks at a time. Which is why it's not really a case of speaker stand & really although there are som framed pictures on the walls, I don't really want speakers sticking out, trunking or cables & nasty cable clips.

    And the Sony speakers aren't white! ;-)

    I've heard Linn Sweetspots & KEF Ci50Rs in a plasterboard ceiling, and frankly they'd do for the kids room, but of course they're <10 ohms.

    I've seen some straggeringly expensive alternatives here, but if the closest I'm going to get is 8 ohms at lowing volume (I can probably find some way on the PC to limit my kids from cranking it too far), then I can't really justify several hundred pounds per speaker.

    Good idea, except we'll be projecting onto a blank wall, so 3 speakers hanging about in the middle of it is going to look a bit odd.

    I'm not wedded to the Sony Sub/Amp. Is there something similar - i.e. not a DVD player/receiver amp + sub, small, unobtrusive...and and Bose?

    Thanks again for you energetic responses. For some reason, the email notification isn't coming through, but I will check back in a few days if you have any further advice or questions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  8. kc2

    kc2
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    Nothing to add??
     
  9. ARNOLD AKIEN

    ARNOLD AKIEN
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    Well, nothing of Huge importance or substance. Nor any Great Thoughts .. save that the key would seem to be not so much a definite requirement that the speakers should go in the ceiling but that, where-ever they go they shouldn't LOOK too High Tech Speakerish in Style.

    A decent compromise might be ...

    Acoustic Energy Aelite OnWall speakers ...


    Acoustic Energy Aelite OnWall speakers 1/2 Price RRP249 on eBay, also, Speakers Hi Fi, Home Audio Hi Fi, Consumer Electronics (end time 12-Feb-09 12:18:38 GMT)

    Not invisible but at least not too obtrusive OR ... Theres the ..

    WHARFEDALE PPS1 PICTURE FRAME 2.1 SPEAKER SYSTEM ...

    WHARFEDALE PPS1 PICTURE FRAME 2.1 SPEAKER SYSTEM - available from Superfi UK Visit http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/product_id/4686 for details


    Or instead of those Wharfedales but along the same lines and quite a bit further up market theres .. ' ARTCOUSTIC ' loudspeakers ..


    " Unlike conventional in-wall and in-ceiling speakers, ARTCOUSTIC loudspeakers hang on the wall like picture frames yet deliver the performance you'd expect from large "box" speakers. They are a perfect match for plasma TVs and other flat-panel TVs. The removable front screens are available in dozens of elegant fabrics, and can be printed with artwork or photography.

    ARTCOUSTIC loudspeakers solve the conflict between what sounds good in a home theater or listening space, and what actually looks good in your home.

    Many music and movie lovers, when faced with possibly upsetting their décor with conventional speakers, too often sacrifice any notion of achieving high-performance sound. Indeed, people are conditioned to think that a "killer" sound system consists of gigantic speakers or a gigantic cabinet built to hide them. While ARTCOUSTIC loudspeakers are engineered to provide audiophile-quality sound, they are designed to serve as natural and attractive style elements.

    ARTCOUSTIC loudspeakers are designed and engineered in Denmark. They employ proprietary technologies to produce superb, full-range sound for music and home theater.

    ARTCOUSTIC loudspeakers make you Believe in the Beauty of Sound. "


    Artcoustic Loudspeakers - hang on the wall like picture frames yet deliver the performance youd expect from large "box" speakers


    I can't comment on their sound quality but they .. DON'T look like Loudspeakers. :devil:

    You did say .." although there are som framed pictures on the walls, I don't really want speakers sticking out, trunking or cables & nasty cable clips. "


    As for Amplification .. Hum .. maybe a cabinet maker could do you a reproduction of The Ark Of The Covenant from " Raiders of The Lost Ark " into which you could fit the amplification system and DVD player. :D


    Arnold.
     
  10. kc2

    kc2
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    Just to close the loop...

    I went with KEF Ci50Rs and an Onkyo HTX22HD - They sound great for surround sound hooked up to a media PC and were very straightforward to install.
     

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