Ceiling Paint peeling - while decorating

Philw101

Well-known Member
Hello all,

We hope you are well and this is the right forum for this.

We are currently decorating all of our bedrooms. House is a new build (2 years ago) and going through the first decoration cycle. However on painting the ceiling we are noticing peeling of the ceiling along plasterboard joints/on filed plasterboard screws. It looks like the original paint didn't have a mist coat on the plasterboard or paint didn't adhere to this. I should note that the ceiling hasn't been skimmed with plaster - it is just bare plasterboard.

When this started to happen for the first three patches we stopped painting the ceiling and completed the following:
- Sand edges, Peel stop, Filled with Toutpret, sanded and primed with bulls-eye 123 based on similar responses on other forums.

However we then proceeded to continue with the painting when everything had resolved. But we are now in a situation where we now have approx 17 peels in a 3 x 3 metre room. While I can complete the above steps again for each paint peel I wander whether this is just 'patching' the issue.

Should we just peel all of the flaking paint off and start again with the bare plasterboard? We are also similarly concerned that this will happen in other rooms, any advice on how to stop this from happening?

Should we do a peel stop coat as an undercoat for the entire ceiling? Or have each ceiling skimmed?

Thank you for your replies!
 

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Philw101

Well-known Member

Pollywoggle

Well-known Member
I don’t know if it would work for you but we had a problem when we stripped wallpaper from some walls in the house we now live in, the paper pulled some of the plaster off etc and we ended up using this stuff to seal the walls after filling the patches. Gardz High Performance Sealer.
We put quite a few coats on as it dries quite quick and ended up with a sealed flat surface that takes any paint.
Probably saved us a fortune as we didn’t need to get the walls skim coated.
 

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vm1451

Active Member
Original decorator didn't prep the ceiling with either a sealer or mist coat. Common issue. Not much that can be done other than strip back to plaster and start again. Anything you put on top of the original will probably take, but the original coat has not adhered to the plaster.
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
Original decorator didn't prep the ceiling with either a sealer or mist coat. Common issue. Not much that can be done other than strip back to plaster and start again. Anything you put on top of the original will probably take, but the original coat has not adhered to the plaster.
Thanks VM1451 - in this case would you suggest taking the entire ceiling of paint off including those areas that have adhered? Its hard to know whether other areas are going to start peeling - but it does appear that the peeling is along edges of plasterboard edges and on the filled in screws.

I agree it seems like there is no sealer on the plasterboard (there is no plaster), so I assume its dry lined with tape and compound (albeit with no feather on the compound whatsoever!)
 

vm1451

Active Member
If there's no plaster then again, common issue with "house bashers", lack of prep!

Removing the existing paint is generally a PITA, very time consuming. I have in the past used a Stanley blade to peel paint away, as far as I am aware there is no paint stripper for water based paint. The other method for testing if the paint has adhered, I often use this a a test for tiling), is to use some duct tape; rub the tape hard onto the surface with the palm of your hand and then tear it off. If the paint comes away then it 'aint good enough! If the paint adhesion is poor then you could use duct tape rather than a blade.

Be aware though that you may well be left with hard edges where paint is stubborn to come away. Either feather these areas with oxide paper, (not without risk of rubbing through the PB paper), or use Gyproc Easi-Filler

Which ever way you cut it, you're in for a long and very boring haul. :facepalm:
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
If there's no plaster then again, common issue with "house bashers", lack of prep!

Removing the existing paint is generally a PITA, very time consuming. I have in the past used a Stanley blade to peel paint away, as far as I am aware there is no paint stripper for water based paint. The other method for testing if the paint has adhered, I often use this a a test for tiling), is to use some duct tape; rub the tape hard onto the surface with the palm of your hand and then tear it off. If the paint comes away then it 'aint good enough! If the paint adhesion is poor then you could use duct tape rather than a blade.

Be aware though that you may well be left with hard edges where paint is stubborn to come away. Either feather these areas with oxide paper, (not without risk of rubbing through the PB paper), or use Gyproc Easi-Filler

Which ever way you cut it, you're in for a long and very boring haul. :facepalm:
Thanks @vm1451, all good advice here. With the amount of sanding/filling etc (for 5 bedrooms) - I was considering sanding the whole thing down with an random orbit sander - and starting again. At least I can ensure the room(s) are properly prepared for now and in the future.

Do you see any risks to this?
 

vm1451

Active Member
Are the rooms coved?
 

Philw101

Well-known Member

vm1451

Active Member
To be honest, if it were me, I'd reboard the ceilings. No coving makes this a much easier prospect, much quicker and way less mess. Sanding back will fill the house with crud regardless of how well you seal the rooms.

Obviously this is not without expense, so you'll have to aske yourself if it's worth it!
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
To be honest, if it were me, I'd reboard the ceilings. No coving makes this a much easier prospect, much quicker and way less mess. Sanding back will fill the house with crud regardless of how well you seal the rooms.

Obviously this is not without expense, so you'll have to aske yourself if it's worth it!
Thanks - to be honest we are not using any of the 5 bedrooms at the moment (sleeping downstairs)! So not overly fussed with the mess. There are no carpets in the rooms nor furniture! ;)

We are also on a bit of a time pressure - (need to be painted by late August).
 

vm1451

Active Member
Dust and crud throughout the house my friend, not just in the rooms you are working! If you are under time constraint then over board. You can use 9.5mm board to save a little money over using 12.5mm, 9.5 is also a bit easier to handle.

You'll spend over a day of hard and very boring graft in each room sanding, may damage the paper on the existing board, (and then your into cutting out and repair), and spend a load of time cleaning up in the room your working and the rest of the house.

Ultimately your into a scenario where some lazy SOB has not done his job properly and someone, (you!), has to correct it. This always cost more than if it was done right in the first place. Example:- I've just taken up a customers bathroom tiled floor because it was failing. the reason? Whomever fixed it down used the wrong adhesive for the tile AND the substrate, and on top of this had fitted underfloor heating for which the adhesive was also wrong! Has cost the customer a week of my time to correct it plus all of the material used. Bad workmanship always costs. :(

Like I said, your call but I know which way I'd go and it would be my recommendation to a customer too. :thumbsup:
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
Dust and crud throughout the house my friend, not just in the rooms you are working! If you are under time constraint then over board. You can use 9.5mm board to save a little money over using 12.5mm, 9.5 is also a bit easier to handle.

You'll spend over a day of hard and very boring graft in each room sanding, may damage the paper on the existing board, (and then your into cutting out and repair), and spend a load of time cleaning up in the room your working and the rest of the house.

Ultimately your into a scenario where some lazy SOB has not done his job properly and someone, (you!), has to correct it. This always cost more than if it was done right in the first place. Example:- I've just taken up a customers bathroom tiled floor because it was failing. the reason? Whomever fixed it down used the wrong adhesive for the tile AND the substrate, and on top of this had fitted underfloor heating for which the adhesive was also wrong! Has cost the customer a week of my time to correct it plus all of the material used. Bad workmanship always costs. :(

Like I said, your call but I know which way I'd go and it would be my recommendation to a customer too. :thumbsup:
Thanks for your help @vm1451 - will discuss with the lady!
 

vm1451

Active Member
No worries fella.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
I have seen this a number of times. The first being that the paint was water based. The solution was to simply wash it off with hot water.

The second was due to the surface not being painted in a kitchen and a layer of cooker grime be coated. It's a pain but it did scape/sand off ok. Then cleaned with sugar soap and ensured dust free and filled bad areas before painting

I would not use a sealer, I tried it on new plaster and it made it vary hard to paint over! 20% water added to a decent paint did the trick.
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
I have seen this a number of times. The first being that the paint was water based. The solution was to simply wash it off with hot water.

The second was due to the surface not being painted in a kitchen and a layer of cooker grime be coated. It's a pain but it did scape/sand off ok. Then cleaned with sugar soap and ensured dust free and filled bad areas before painting

I would not use a sealer, I tried it on new plaster and it made it vary hard to paint over! 20% water added to a decent paint did the trick.
Thanks @ashenfie. In this case, I don't want to continue to add moisture to the surface of the paint. Especially given that the ceiling hasn't been skimmed - the builders painted directly to plasterboard. (Typical new build stuff I reckon)! More moisture may end up making the paper brittle on the plasterboard itself.

Not sure what to use for sealing the plasterboard, everyone seems to suggest Zinsser Gardz. But need to get the rest of the paint off. I just don't want to have to go down the road of patching/filling (over 20 areas) to add another coat and it peels in another area. I really need to get this resolved in one shot rather than waiting days for things to dry before sanding etc.
 

vm1451

Active Member
I have seen this a number of times. The first being that the paint was water based. The solution was to simply wash it off with hot water.

The second was due to the surface not being painted in a kitchen and a layer of cooker grime be coated. It's a pain but it did scape/sand off ok. Then cleaned with sugar soap and ensured dust free and filled bad areas before painting

I would not use a sealer, I tried it on new plaster and it made it vary hard to paint over! 20% water added to a decent paint did the trick.
Depends on the paint. If it has vinyl content then you are unlikely to be able to wash it off with hot water as this paint is designed to be scrubbed!

Second paragraph is correct, sugar soap is great for cleaning dirty/grimy/greasy surfaces prior to painitng.

The right sealer, applied correctly, is the best surface to paint to. Thinned paint, can be used as a sealer but it has to be the right paint and doesn't have to be that good. Any thinned vinyl content paint, regardless of cost or grade will not adhere very well to plaster, (although it can be ok for plasterboard). The best paint is a NON vinyl content paint thinned with water, so basically contract matt; these can vary massively though so 20% water may not be enough for some and to much for others!
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
Depends on the paint. If it has vinyl content then you are unlikely to be able to wash it off with hot water as this paint is designed to be scrubbed!

Second paragraph is correct, sugar soap is great for cleaning dirty/grimy/greasy surfaces prior to painitng.

The right sealer, applied correctly, is the best surface to paint to. Thinned paint, can be used as a sealer but it has to be the right paint and doesn't have to be that good. Any thinned vinyl content paint, regardless of cost or grade will not adhere very well to plaster, (although it can be ok for plasterboard). The best paint is a NON vinyl content paint thinned with water, so basically contract matt; these can vary massively though so 20% water may not be enough for some and to much for others!
Regards the paint, 20 percent in a cheap paint would be too much water thu. B&q own for example is already so thin. I totally renovated an old house replastering top to bottom so have been there and let’s face every new house is painted with thinned cheap paint to the point is slightly powdery, less than ideal,
 

vm1451

Active Member
Think that's what I said? :thumbsup:

Wouldn't touch B&Q paint, no where near enough solids in it, even the Dulux Trade paint they sell is not the same as the paint you get from a DDC.
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
For where we have plaster - we have used Leyland Matt contract white paint - thinned down. Approx 15-20%. This actually seems to be doing quite well - and the plaster has taken to it nicely.

Essentially we have removed the 'builders wardrobes' and replacing with something more bespoke:

The plasterer removed the stud walls around the wardrobes and skimmed the walls to make them flat for the new installation.

The reason for the time crunch is that they are going to be installed in August and we wanted the rooms decorated before the installation. :)
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
Late to the party, I've had this issue in a previous property. Whats happens with dry lined walls & ceilings, is the dry liner tapes, skims, and sands. Then the decorator comes along and sprays/paints the walls & ceilings, without removing the dust created by the dry liner.

You can try scraping back those patches to good structure, then sugar soaping, then filling, painting, then filling, then painting etc. Or as said, if its a big issue, blue grit & skimmed.
 

Philw101

Well-known Member
Hi all, well I went the whole nine yards, and decided I couldn't live with it in its current state, so used the random orbit sander on the ceiling.

And surprise surprise every joint and every screw hole had peeling paint. So glad I did this!!


All of the paint is off now, except the corners and edges.....any ideas here except to use a block?

I have 'burnt' through some of the platerboard paper (into the brown layer) but going to seal with Gardz once I am done.

Some of the tape is showing through the filler, these were causing cracks in the ceiling before I sanded so likely these have failed long before I got to sanding. Would it be better to refill or redo the tapes/mesh and refill?

Thanks:) oh and sorry for the late post been doing this for over a week after work....
 

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Philw101

Well-known Member
Thanks @Russa - it may be that we do this - but we are running against the clock to get this dryed out before the wardrobes are installed.

On another note - we were investigating why the some of the mesh joints failed and it seems like the builders screwed the 'butt edges' of the plasterboard too close to the edge (literally 1mm from the edge) and now its cracking here.

20210815_230313.jpg

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Looking in the loft space - the wooden beam isn't level with the joint hence why they screwed so close to the joint.

Question - Do we cut of the cracked drywall before replacing the wooden batten, either for something wider or on the perpendicular to the joint? We have drawn the situation out below along with the proposed solutions.

Or do you think this is a lost cause and will need a professional to come and do it? We did want to try it ourselves first - we have learnt a lot about the house doing this decoration process.

1629062953472.png



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