Car Lovers in the 21st Century

edz

Active Member
No, not a new syfy mini series!

A little background:

Recently down here in darkest Dorset our local UA has been more and more active in shutting down local road use for cars. Given the new found love that our glorious* leader Boris has found for Cycling and act-first-consult-with-the-locals-later-or-not-at-all grants that followed, the local lib-controlled council has gone bonkers with many restrictions and closures for all bar cycles and pedestrians, no electric vehicle exceptions.

Some have been stopped before they were enacted as the public found out about them (they weren't publicised beforehand) but it's likely some will get put in over express objections from the locals as they are classed as "experimental" 6 to 18 month projects and will be reviewed before being made permanent or removed. Of course these things, once in, are never removed unless huge council changes happen or an election is imminent and they begrudgingly need to deal with the public.

But a moan and waileywailey about how cyclists ruin my life as a driver is not where I am heading. I'm not and they don't (although council and ill thought out road planners do ;) ) I've been a cyclist and a motorcyclist and dabbled with scooters. But gave up on all of them 5 years or so ago as the weather in this country just made it a miserable experience to pursue in any major way - e.g. work, shopping etc - (for me anyway - those that like it cool go for it, one less car in traffic!) I've no intention of getting on a bike in the UK ever again (my BMI is under 21 so no lardy here) although I do walk a fair bit when the weather supports it.

No, what I wanted to open up was where are we heading?

I recently had to change my car as my PCP was 2 years+ in and I wanted to maintain warranty etc, so I changed to a Skyactiv-X Mazda CX30 (which I really like) and have seen my fuel usage drop quite a bit while my CO2 emissions have dropped from my old CX5. This in turn is part of our plan with the house we moved into in February (after many years in a maisonette) to widen our drive and have a major re-wire / solar installation before then looking to go full electric. We did consider it this time but charging may (well, definitely would) have been an issue at present and costs were out of our budget for anything we'd have liked.

I also don't see anything in the sub-40k market at present I'd want to drive. The BMW, VW and even Mazda MX30 offerings are pretty low-end in comparison with the ICE versions at a similar cost, those electric cars I'd like are way over 50k at a minimum for new so a two year window for the market to mature seems sensible.

Is the future going to be electric in city with longer range electric on motorways (or rented ICE vehicles for long haul)?

Or with (what seems to now be) open hostility toward cars (including electric vehicles) from the Prime Minister and some very vocal ultra militant cycle lobbies (who I already know do not represent normal cyclists) as well as local authorities and green lobbyists with their own agenda is it literally going to be forcing the public to stop using cars and damn the fallout to personal and country consequences?

Interesting (and to me extremely depressing) times.

So over to you am I massively over reacting (a fair chance of this!) or do others think the same?


* your opinion may vary
 

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
No, not a new syfy mini series!

A little background:

Recently down here in darkest Dorset our local UA has been more and more active in shutting down local road use for cars. Given the new found love that our glorious* leader Boris has found for Cycling and act-first-consult-with-the-locals-later-or-not-at-all grants that followed, the local lib-controlled council has gone bonkers with many restrictions and closures for all bar cycles and pedestrians, no electric vehicle exceptions.

Some have been stopped before they were enacted as the public found out about them (they weren't publicised beforehand) but it's likely some will get put in over express objections from the locals as they are classed as "experimental" 6 to 18 month projects and will be reviewed before being made permanent or removed. Of course these things, once in, are never removed unless huge council changes happen or an election is imminent and they begrudgingly need to deal with the public.

But a moan and waileywailey about how cyclists ruin my life as a driver is not where I am heading. I'm not and they don't (although council and ill thought out road planners do ;) ) I've been a cyclist and a motorcyclist and dabbled with scooters. But gave up on all of them 5 years or so ago as the weather in this country just made it a miserable experience to pursue in any major way - e.g. work, shopping etc - (for me anyway - those that like it cool go for it, one less car in traffic!) I've no intention of getting on a bike in the UK ever again (my BMI is under 21 so no lardy here) although I do walk a fair bit when the weather supports it.

No, what I wanted to open up was where are we heading?

I recently had to change my car as my PCP was 2 years+ in and I wanted to maintain warranty etc, so I changed to a Skyactiv-X Mazda CX30 (which I really like) and have seen my fuel usage drop quite a bit while my CO2 emissions have dropped from my old CX5. This in turn is part of our plan with the house we moved into in February (after many years in a maisonette) to widen our drive and have a major re-wire / solar installation before then looking to go full electric. We did consider it this time but charging may (well, definitely would) have been an issue at present and costs were out of our budget for anything we'd have liked.

I also don't see anything in the sub-40k market at present I'd want to drive. The BMW, VW and even Mazda MX30 offerings are pretty low-end in comparison with the ICE versions at a similar cost, those electric cars I'd like are way over 50k at a minimum for new so a two year window for the market to mature seems sensible.

Is the future going to be electric in city with longer range electric on motorways (or rented ICE vehicles for long haul)?

Or with (what seems to now be) open hostility toward cars (including electric vehicles) from the Prime Minister and some very vocal ultra militant cycle lobbies (who I already know do not represent normal cyclists) as well as local authorities and green lobbyists with their own agenda is it literally going to be forcing the public to stop using cars and damn the fallout to personal and country consequences?

Interesting (and to me extremely depressing) times.

So over to you am I massively over reacting (a fair chance of this!) or do others think the same?


* your opinion may vary

Yep, you’re overreacting. This country is obsessed with vehicles in the way Americans are obsessed with guns.

Should there be more space given to cycling and green transport in city centres? Absolutely, or we’ll end up with permanent traffic jams (we pretty much already do in many cities). It’s not hostility, the penny seems to be dropping that we can’t just carry on squeezing more and more cars into city centres.

The car is going nowhere (forgive the pun), but we are almost in the twilight years of internal combustion engines, and the future is electric.
 

edz

Active Member
Good to know. Never afraid to hear that either.

I'm happy to hear it. I agree believe me I love ice cars but some of the new works - the polestar comes to mind - are the most exciting developments I've seen in a while but I do fear if we get to see them will we be allowed to enjoy them. We shall I suppose see!
 

GuitarGuy

Distinguished Member
I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.

My home town is proof that making things difficult for car users to get into a city centre is the most surefire way to kill commerce.

I don't remember the last time I went to the town centre because I don't want to cycle or ride the bus in, environmentally friendly or not it's a choice most people actively make. Lockdowns and restrictions in shops etc has only made it easier to get everything online. The high street will be dead by the end of the decade.
 

NorvernRob

Distinguished Member
I don't like it, I don't like it one bit.

My home town is proof that making things difficult for car users to get into a city centre is the most surefire way to kill commerce.

I don't remember the last time I went to the town centre because I don't want to cycle or ride the bus in, environmentally friendly or not it's a choice most people actively make. Lockdowns and restrictions in shops etc has only made it easier to get everything online. The high street will be dead by the end of the decade.

But surely you can see that just ignoring the problems would end up with city centres at a virtual constant standstill, and pollution would be horrendous? Trying to fit more cars into town centres isn’t the answer.

The rise in out of town shopping centres, retail parks, and online shopping have killed the traditional high street, not lack of car access. And yes, I fully appreciate that one of the attractions of these places is the masses of free parking, but that’s something city centres could never have competed with at any point.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
But surely you can see that just ignoring the problems would end up with city centres at a virtual constant standstill, and pollution would be horrendous? Trying to fit more cars into town centres isn’t the answer.

The rise in out of town shopping centres, retail parks, and online shopping have killed the traditional high street, not lack of car access. And yes, I fully appreciate that one of the attractions of these places is the masses of free parking, but that’s something city centres could never have competed with at any point.
the problem city centres (especially London) have is that traditional 'business' thinks it has to have an address, postcode, telephone number that identifies as city centre.
Out-of-town shopping centres answered the need for an alternative to crush and traffic jams as shoppers and commuters competed for resources.
Not helped by councils sticking their oar in and making visiting town centres into an unwelcoming experience.
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
Whilst the electric vehicles are undoubtably going to play a very large part in the future, the ones available now are either inpractical because of their short range and/or far too expensive in my opinion.

I have been looking at electric vehicles over the last few months out of interest but even the Kia e-nero starts at about £36,000 - 36K for a bloody Kia ! I have a major problem because my house only cost me £42,000 and whilst that was in 1991, it still is a mental block for me paying these stupid prices for cars.

I have a drive and standing space for a car so I could charge it, but there are probably millions of people who don't have the ability to plug their cars in at home so for them an electric car is not really an option. For example, the road the leads down to my estate, none of the houses have drives and everyone has to park on the street. The bus service is crap and there's no bus service running to the local train station or into the local shops. If you want to go to either of those you have to walk.
 

lee1980

Well-known Member
Since online shopping has been easier and with things like click and collect, we don't even visit bigger out of town malls or larger stores. Now with lockdown have got into online food shopping to.
We rarely go to city centre to shop and park as its again so busy and expensive to park.
Park and ride does work well though, but not if you want to pick up anything big or heavy!

As above electric cars are still far to pricy and one with a 200 mile range would suit us for one car to as rarely do any big miles, but until come down in price, we will wait until next year and see how it goes as was due to replace our jazz but its going ok.
 
D

Deleted member 39001

Guest
We are heading towards electric vehicles, if they can get the infrastructure in place, and from 2022 currently all new cars that will auto limit your speed to the roads speed limit, it’s an EU regulation the U.K. will have to follow, from what I’ve read. So all the ‘brand new’ fancy supercars you buy won’t be able to exceed 70MPH maximum on the road. Although I see they have plans in the U.K. to trial 60mph motorway limits to reduce emissions.


So it does then lead to autonomous cars and the enjoyment of driving will be gone :(

Personally I feel electric cars are a novelty that’s not working because of the infrastructure, and the speed of charging, the tech needs improving, life is too short to spend 40 minutes charging a car when the fuel pump can’t take 5, once it’s at the same level it’ll be there, also they need to open up, not be like Tesla having chargers for Tesla etc, but all chargers work with all electric cars.

but it’ll be pointless having your 3 litre German saloon unless you go on unrestricted roads or the race track, or a runway.

I don’t think the good ol days of driving will last much longer. However despite the endless films, I don’t think we will see flying cars either..

I think electric cars will be the norm in 10 years time with ‘hopefully’ tech and an infrastructure that works. And we will all be planting our right foot harking back to the days of what that used to mean...

But the prices have got to come down too, in fact I’ve noticed car prices have seemingly increased but wages have not gone up to match in general. With some small cars demanding premiums, but I guess that’s to entice you onto those 3 year with balloon payment plans?

As for the roads, well I’m in Dorset too and now if they killed the car the countryside would be killed along with it, the busses are none existent and the nearest station is 7 miles away? And then you have the cost of railway fairs. I can think of several ideas for cities, but also how they lack the infrastructure for it.
 
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HMHB

Distinguished Member
What’s going to happen to all the batteries when they reach end of life? What will the range of a car that when new has a range of 250 miles be in 4 or 5 years time?

I don’t believe that electric cars are the solution unless we have a big leap forward in battery technology. I also don’t believe that the national grid could cope with everyone suddenly switching to electric cars!

Driving is no fun around my town any more because of all the average speed cameras etc. They’ve reduced the limit on most major roads to 50mph and that means in reality following cars doing anywhere between 40 and 45 and this is on roads that should be 60mph in reality. I’m not expecting to be able to drive at silly speeds but I do expect to be able to drive at a speed which is safe for the road and conditions and on all the roads they’ve reduced the limit to 50, it’s too low. In a lot of cases the lower speed limits have been introduced because some young fudgewitt on a motorbike or car has driven like a **** and killed himself.
 

scarty16

Well-known Member
1. The national Grid have stated so many times that it can cope with EVs, its getting silly, but the myths still are believed. Here is a link to help the hard of searching - 6 myths about electric vehicles busted | National Grid Group

2. You don't sit and wait for an EV to charge, you charge it at work when you arrive, you charge it at home when you arrive. I have just charged it at ASDA whilst shopping. I am not wasting 5 mins of my day sat pumping dinosaur juice into my car.

3. EVs are not all more expensive than the Dino-juice versions Porsche Taycon is cheaper than the Panamera, and significantly so.

4. Life of Batteries, currently Nissan research is 23 years, Nissan LEAF Batteries To Outlast Car By 10-12 Years yes it outlasts the car by a decade or so.

5. Losing Range from a battery, not even worth worrying about - Is Battery Degradation Still A Major Issue For Electric Cars? New Data Shows Much Capacity EV Models Lose Over Time - The Fast Lane Car Do I hear anybody worrying about Power loss or efficiency loss from Dino-juice cars, no I don't.

1599996099263.png
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
1) If everyone suddenly had an electric car, you’d struggle to find any chargers available at work and whilst out shopping without there being a massive increase in chargers.

2) I would never take advice from a Derby supporter ;) :rotfl:

edit - on a more serious note, my comment about the national grid in a previous post was meant to be about everyone getting home from work at the same time and immediately putting their car on charge. It would be a big increase to the spike that already happens at that time. It would need some kind of smart ability to cope with this surge. I don’t think we can rely on the people to not plug their charger in straight away, people just seem to think of their own needs these days (as witnessed before the lockdown with greedy selfish hoarders stripping the shelves)

Re the battery degradation - just showing data for 1 year is hardly proof that it’s not worth worrying about! My 6 year old petrol car can still return 49 to 50 miles per gallon when driven sensibly and that is what it was averaging when it was new.
 
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scarty16

Well-known Member
Ref chargers check out ZAP map, thousands of the bloody things everywhere, just not at the equivalent of Dino-juice stations. Example near my home

1599999534104.png


1599999895976.png


The number of petrol stations is decreasing yearly as well, quite dramatically - The United Kingdom is home to 8,385 operational petrol stations and those under development. Numbers have fallen by over 35 percent since 2000. 2013 is the only year recorded here which shows a year-on-year increase. UK: number of petrol stations 2000-2018 | Statista Soon you will not be able to find Dino-juice anywhere.

I would never take advice of the Current Derby manager that is for sure :)

The car chargers used at home although plugged in at lets say 6pm, will smart charge over night, they all won't just start sucking juice at 6pm. The National Grid myth busters does state this and the smart chargers are already available as either boxes on the wall, smart cables or in the apps that come with your car.

The battery degradation article does include data going back for 7 years, not just 1 year.

The office where I work currently (see what I did there) has about 20 chargers installed and more are on the way. Since most people will not need to plug in every day, you don't need chargers for all spaces. + chargers are coming to Tesco, Sainsburys, McDonalds Costa etc. It won't be an issue.
 
D

Deleted member 39001

Guest
Ref chargers check out ZAP map, thousands of the bloody things everywhere, just not at the equivalent of Dino-juice stations. Example near my home

View attachment 1364941

View attachment 1364950

The number of petrol stations is decreasing yearly as well, quite dramatically - The United Kingdom is home to 8,385 operational petrol stations and those under development. Numbers have fallen by over 35 percent since 2000. 2013 is the only year recorded here which shows a year-on-year increase. UK: number of petrol stations 2000-2018 | Statista Soon you will not be able to find Dino-juice anywhere.

I would never take advice of the Current Derby manager that is for sure :)

The car chargers used at home although plugged in at lets say 6pm, will smart charge over night, they all won't just start sucking juice at 6pm. The National Grid myth busters does state this and the smart chargers are already available as either boxes on the wall, smart cables or in the apps that come with your car.

The battery degradation article does include data going back for 7 years, not just 1 year.

The office where I work currently (see what I did there) has about 20 chargers installed and more are on the way. Since most people will not need to plug in every day, you don't need chargers for all spaces. + chargers are coming to Tesco, Sainsburys, McDonalds Costa etc. It won't be an issue.

I have to say I haven’t seen a reduction in petrol stations? None have closed around me. And those chargers that exist now all vary in power and speed, you can go to one which will take 30 mins another will take 20 mins and so on, their is no consistency, with the ‘dinosaur fuel’ as you call it there is. As I said the infrastructure and tech isn’t there.
If you plug in at home it takes as I understand several hours to fully charge a car and that’s using a special charger.
Electric is coming I think. The government laws have seen to that, but we do not have the tech or infrastructure yet for it.
And my Apple phone battery degraded over 2 years. A car battery will degrade over time, that’s why they offer battery replacement programmes. Again it’s the tech that needs improving. Preferably without having to mine the metals the batteries use or create hazardous waste from the batteries.
 

scarty16

Well-known Member
A car battery will degrade over time, that’s why they offer battery replacement programmes.
Battery replacement programs - calling 2003, calling 2003, somebody wants to use your technology, lol.

Oil rigs and Oil wells, are well known for only causing green fields full of frollicing unicorns to grow near by.

I guess you will be giving up your apple phone then due its Lithium Ion battery content, considerable higher in nasties than car batteries by percentage.


I also guess you don't remember 2*, 4*, 5*, leaded, Unleaded, Diesel, Normal & Super different Dino-Juices then.
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
If you think that a lot of people are lucky enough to work where they have chargers then you are seriously deluded :)

If you kept using the phrase ‘dino juice’ in a pub around Mansfield you’d get glassed within 5 minutes, so beware ;) :)

I know you’ve got a new toy and want to justify. I’d like to own one but they are not suitable for someone like me who doesn’t do many miles. For example, I‘ve just filled up with petrol for the first time this year, my last tank lasted me 9 months. OK that was an exceptional year due to the lockdown but to make an electric car as economical as a petrol one you need to be doing over 8,000 miles a year when you factor in buying a charger etc.

I even looked into getting solar panels installed but all research I did is saying that most domestic solar panel installations can’t produce enough juice to charge a car overnight by itself so factoring in the cost of the panels, they aren’t viable. I’d love to be able to not have to buy petrol ever again but it’s just not suitable for my needs.
 

scarty16

Well-known Member
Cost of Solar Panels - Green Deal: energy saving for your home £5000 or £10000, to pay for them, just apply. As seen on Martin Lewis last week.

Solar panels won't charge anything overnight :) - sorry couldn't resist. You would need a battery to do that.

Can't comment on your personal circumstances ref economics of car ownership.

I don't have an EV personally (just evangelical), as I am waiting for my Dino-Juice car to reach a certain mileage before I swap it, at this rate it might take longer than expected.

Intrigued about the Mansfield - Dino-Juice comment, whats that about?
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
Cost of Solar Panels - Green Deal: energy saving for your home £5000 or £10000, to pay for them, just apply. As seen on Martin Lewis last week.

Solar panels won't charge anything overnight :) - sorry couldn't resist. You would need a battery to do that.

Can't comment on your personal circumstances ref economics of car ownership.

I don't have an EV personally (just evangelical), as I am waiting for my Dino-Juice car to reach a certain mileage before I swap it, at this rate it might take longer than expected.

Intrigued about the Mansfield - Dino-Juice comment, whats that about?

It’s about someone coming out with the same ‘funny’ term over and over again, never goes down well as it soon becomes annoying :) Enjoy your pinko-lefty-environmentalist-juice when you get it :)

Solar panels would be an option if I was younger and could get the benefit of the years to come for cheaper electricity but I think you need to have them for many years to break even if you’re buying them. Ideal option would be to buy a house that already has them installed so that someone else has paid for them!
 

aVdub

Banned
Lithium-ion batteries – which are the most common battery types used in electric vehicles – are formed of certain elements including carbon or graphite, a metal oxide and lithium salt

More Dino products ;)
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
With a petrol car, you don't have to stay at home, at work, or in the supermarket whilst it 'refuels'. That's clearly am advantage if the only thing you need to do is to continue your journey.
...The car chargers used at home although plugged in at lets say 6pm, will smart charge over night, they all won't just start sucking juice at 6pm. The National Grid myth busters does state this and the smart chargers are already available as either boxes on the wall, smart cables or in the apps that come with your car.
So how does that help if you've just got home from a long commute and another household member wants to use the car for shopping or social purposes, do they have to wait until the smart charger has done its duty overnight?
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
The office where I work currently (see what I did there) has about 20 chargers installed and more are on the way.

How much do you pay per unit?
 

scarty16

Well-known Member
With a petrol car, you don't have to stay at home, at work, or in the supermarket whilst it 'refuels'. That's clearly am advantage if the only thing you need to do is to continue your journey.So how does that help if you've just got home from a long commute and another household member wants to use the car for shopping or social purposes, do they have to wait until the smart charger has done its duty overnight?
There is no difference here to a dino-juice vehicle.

You come back home with no juice, what do you do, you have to go and find a dino-juice dispenser and then wait for it to fill you up.

Plus you don't wait for it to refuel at a EV charging point, you plug in when you arrive and plug out when you go. adds 10 seconds on.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
There is no difference here to a dino-juice vehicle.

You come back home with no juice, what do you do, you have to go and find a dino-juice dispenser and then wait for it to fill you up.
There is a difference; it can be filled when the returning driver is reminded it's low on their journey home, or on the next journey out - whenever that is. Electric has to wait for the smart charger to cut in, so it doesn't spike the grid simultaneously with all the other smart chargers. Unless you force override it like doubtless everyone else will if that facility is available.
Plus you don't wait for it to refuel at a EV charging point, you plug in when you arrive and plug out when you go. adds 10 seconds on.
So what do you do between plugging in and unplugging, if the only reason for stopping there is to refuel?
 

gangzoom

Distinguished Member
The car is going nowhere (forgive the pun), but we are almost in the twilight years of internal combustion engines, and the future is electric.

I've gone totally the other way, I got bored of combustion cars year ago, and our current EV is the best car we have ever owned.

However since the start of the year our mileage on the EV has dropped from 14k per year to sub 6k since Jan of this year.

I'm fed up of city driving, and more recent rediscovered the joys of cycling. People talk about road feel, been connected with sports cars, sitting low etc, well a pedal road bike with 23mm tyres pumped to 100PSI with rim brakes gives you a whole new understanding of British B roads, be that climbing up a hill or descending.

I've now replaced nearly my entire work commute with an eBike, and have been commuting to work ok it since Feb, will carry on through the winter.

I use to love cars, but they interest me little these days. Our EV is probably the last new car I'll ever buy brand new and I don't expect to need to replace it till close to 2030.

We also have a house with solar panels + home battery storage. Am not a tree hugger but I do appreciate how much energy I wasted in the past for the sake of getting from A to B or just for fun with cars I've owned.

The future for me is not car, this weekend I took some snaps of my road bike. Its 10 years old next year, yet the only thing I've ever replaced on it is a chain and rear cassette. Interms of longevity, value for money per mile travelled, fun per mile travelled bikes for me are so much better than cars :).

50337389122_de796c1647_k_d.jpg


And this is my current commuter, gets me to work just as quickly as the car, works fine in all weathers and I get fit at the same time :).

50337388042_2fbce06fce_k_d.jpg
 

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