Can't Buy DV88+

Discussion in 'Arcam Owners' Forum' started by jspr, May 25, 2004.

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  1. jspr

    jspr
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    Just tried to buy the DV88+ from creative-audio for £499 and they tell me arcam will not allow them to sell mail order !!!!!!

    As I live a long way from creative-audio, arcam have just lost a very unhappy potential customer - their sales policy stinks. :thumbsdow
     
  2. forrestgump

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    you could have saved yourself the embarassment of asking them if you had read pervious threads on the subject, no arcam goods are sold via mail order, the subject has been discussed at length already, for such an awesome product as the 88 plus find a way to get to the store! If your local arcam delaer has any dv88's left he should sell it to you for £600 like mine did, you will probably spend £100 getting to creative anyway! I have used numerous dvd/cd players and none touch the 88 plus for movies and music, you'd be daft to pass the player off cos of a policy that has stood since arcam were founded!
     
  3. jspr

    jspr
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    Forrestgump

    Thanks for your reply - you're right, if i'd searched for 'do arcam sell via mail order' then I probably would have saved myself ringing creative-audio :mad:
    I did contact my local arcam dealer who said they might be able to get hold of a 88+ and sell it to me for £600 - however do I really want to pay an extra £100 ?

    My other option was the denon 2200 which I can get for about £470 - do you think the arcam is really worth the extra £130 ?? Appreciate any advice.
     
  4. nikyzf

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    That is why companies like Arcam won't allow mail-order sales. They expect you to go to the dealer and demo their kit against the competition. Of course, you could rely on reviews, but that depends on how much you trust them. FWIW in the reviews I've seen, the 2200 wins as an all-rounder, but even the DV78 beats it as a CD player.
     
  5. rags

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    Thats just a pure excuse. It's clearly a way to restrict competition between Arcam dealers (keeping sales local) thereby maintaining prices. It's anti-competitive and it stinks.
     
  6. nikyzf

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    I see your point, and consumer associations have compaigned against this practice for as long as I can remember. However, in the realm of specialist goods, I don't think it's quite that simple. Would you buy AV or hi-fi gear without a demo? If you're happy just to buy on price/specs/reviews, then fair enough, and you could just buy from the cheapest box-shifter. If not, you will want a demo and good facilities for that are expensive: a dealer offering those will not last long if the same goods are available for substantially less elsewhere. That is why specialist manufacturers like Arcam, Linn, and Meridian supply only "authorised" dealers.

    I used to share your view. Now my view is: if you dislike this policy, buy other products elsewhere. It's not as if these are essential goods. We have a choice :eek:)
     
  7. jspr

    jspr
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    You're right - we do have a choice. Having been refused the opportunity to buy the 88+ at £100 cheaper from creative-audio by arcams selling policy I have taken my business elsewhere - I have just bought a Denon 2200 and am absolutely delighted with my purchase (£469.99 from Leconcepts). It is a major improvement from my old Pioneer 717. Would the arcam have been as good or better than the denon ? - I will never know, but I do know arcam are £500 poorer off.
     
  8. phaigh

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    All because you didn't want to demo the products? I find that a strange attitude to spending £500.

    What else would you buy without seeing/hearing it?

    I always demo everything audio that I buy, I have a good relationship with my dealer, and he cuts me some slack.

    Perhaps you should try it.

    Paul.
     
  9. jspr

    jspr
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    I've actually demo'd the denon plus a couple of pioneers, the local arcam dealer didn't have any 88+ in stock and said that as they were a discontinued model he would only get one in from arcam if I placed an order ! (Not very impressed there !) £600 was really just too much outside my budget - anyway I'm now very happy with what I've got and that's all that really matters.
     
  10. robfitzp

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    Demoing equipment at home is beneficial as you get to check it out in your own system and can use it long enough to get over the initial wow/different factor.

    In most hifi shops I think it is essentially a pointless exercise unless it is so bad or so good that the initial impression from the hour or so you spend with it is enough to make up your mind. I think this is particularly true of audio, perhaps less so with video, but then video is more of a muchness anyway.
     
  11. rags

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    Still doesnt stack up. Why would Arcam care whether we demo their equipment or not ??

    Anyways just because products are sold via mail order doesnt stop you from demoing them.
     
  12. Ikki

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    Why all the venom directed at Arcam?

    No body is forcing you to buy their products and it is up to them to decide how they market them. They have a reputation to maintain and are naturally careful about the distribution of the DVD players, etc that they manufacture.

    I hope that you are happy with your purchase of the Denon, don't let the fact that a little more outlay and a nice drive would have bought a superior machine bother you. :laugh:
     
  13. rags

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    I actualy do own an Arcam DVD player and have just also ordered a DV79. I like their products but I dont like the fact that my options as to which dealer I buy from are limited. My points are not Arcam specific as the same applies to a number of other brands.

    Personally I drove to Shrewsbury to buy a DV89 as I think it is one hell of a bargain.
     
  14. rags

    rags
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    I may buy some equipment without a demo but whether I chose to do so or not is my prerogative and not Arcams. When I went to order my DV79 my local dealer didnt say "oh you must have a demo against the Pioneer 868i" and neither did Creative Audio when I picked up my DV89. If I had asked I am sure that both dealers would be willing to demo me the Arcam or the Pioneer (in fact Creative Audio already had a Pioneer up and running which I watched briefly). I mean its not as if Pioneer or other more mainstream brand dealers arent willing to demo equipment to you !!!

    I mean what did Arcam, the dealer or I gain by forcing me to drive up to Shrewsbury :confused: I didnt demo the player and I may never see Shrewsbury again let alone use the same dealer for future purchases. If they are after local sales they shouldnt have sold 100+ units at a knock down price to Creative Audio - did they really expect that all the units would end up in the hands of local consumers ?
     
  15. Ikki

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    Rags,

    The above comments were not meant for you.

    As far as Arcam 'forcing' you to drive to Shrewsbury is concerned, I was told that Arcam had asked all their dealers if they wanted to sell the last of the DV88+ & DV89 stock at these low prices, but that only Creative optioned to buy a significant quantity of the stock. Apparently other dealers chose not to take advantage of this offer for whatever reason, and those that had remaining stock seem to have been selling them at a price premium.

    Again I don't see where Arcam or Creative are in the wrong.
     
  16. robfitzp

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    Got a DV88+ today and I am really impressed, much better than the Pioneer 737 it replaced. Pictures are more cinematic and have greater depth than the Pioneer and the sound also seems punchier, though I may be imagining that as it is just co-ax out.

    Overall well worth the money and effort to go get it.

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  17. RaceTripper

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    You're not imagining the improved sound over coax output. Not at all...

    People that say "digital is digital" and shouldn't vary between machines are living a silly myth. The DV88 Plus digital audio blows away my $900 Marantz player. In fact I just improved the digital audio further by upgrading my coax cable to a premium one.

    Dean
     
  18. rags

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    I am not blaming Creative Audio at all - in fact I found them to be an excellent dealership. They had the guts to buy a lot of the stock and sell it for a lowish margin. Arcam sold them the stock though knowing full well that people from all round the country would come and buy units without a demo -a bit hypocritical given their local selling policy. I mean how many buyers actually demod the player at Creative Audio before handing over their cash ?

    Retailers should be allowed to sell their stock however they wish to - do you really think Creative wouldnt have been willing to courier the machines if their hands hadnt been tied by Arcam ? Consumers should have a choice of who we can purchase from - is it right that it is made much more difficult for anyone who lives outside of Shrewsbury and the surrounding area to buy the DVD player at a bargain price because no other dealer was willing to buy Arcams stock ? In this day and age if we can have a £5k plasma safely shipped from the other side of the country etc I dont see the problem with a £600 DVD player. Once again this is not an Arcam only argument - applies to lots of other specialist makes as well.
     
  19. Daneel

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    You've done a double blind test to prove this yes?

    On topic, I'm totally with rags on this one. The no Internet sales poilcy is entirely self-serving.
     
  20. Ikki

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    At the end of the day, Arcam can sell their products where and how they choose. If they gain or lose sales as a result, that is the outcome of their marketing strategy. It's not as if going to Shrewsbury is like a journey to Timbuktoo (the pubs are better in Shrewsbury) :D .

    I don't see the demo issue as important in this argument, this is a unique event to make way for their new ranges and the people who will make the trip to Creative for a DV88+/DV89 will do so because they are already well informed about the capabilities of the equpiment concerned and know that they are getting a bargain. The consumer has no god given right to purchase any product as and when or where they desire.
     
  21. rags

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    If consumers were informed enough about the DV88+/89 to make a purchase without a demo you could say that about any of Arcams products - so why the no shipping policy ? What are they worried about - damage in transit :D. If the demo thing isnt important, I cant think of a single valid reason for having a no shipping policy.

    Their marketing strategy restricts competition and maintains high prices. Plain and simple.
     
  22. RaceTripper

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    No, not recently (but 20 years ago while working for a Linn/Naim dealer).

    But if I audition something for awhile, and hear things I missed before and enjoy the sound more, until I remove it again, that's good enough for me. Listening to music and movies is a lot more than numbers. There's an emotional/human component that can't be explained through measures. Watching whether someone taps their feet to music playing from some setup is probably more revealing than a scientific test.

    But I'm not willing to get into the "prove it with scientific method" argument. There's been plenty of pro/con discussion over digital audio and cables. And no one ever wins, they just keep arguing pointlessly.

    Dean
     
  23. Daneel

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    Who said anything about measurement?

    All you need to do is be able to tell the difference when you don't know which you are listening to.

    The reason no one ever wins is because those that claim there is a difference almost never submit to a blind test. I wonder why that is.
     
  24. sticker

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    That's an outrageously pompous remark to make, if I may say so. :lesson:
     
  25. RaceTripper

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    I think cables are like anything else in a system. They either change the sound or they don't, and like anything else, they should be auditioned before commiting to purchase.

    For those who believe premium cables are a waste of money, they are welcome to call me fool and take pleasure thinking I'm throwing my money away. It won't change my life, and I'm still enjoying my setup very much. I have nothing to prove.
     
  26. Paul Reading

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    There are only two reasons for not allowing mail order:-

    1. Because of the sensitive nature of the Arcam product it may not meet the quality control standards if sent via a courier firm.

    2. To restrict competition between dealers and thus support a specialist dealer network.

    In either case it seems to me to be a good idea. If you don't like the price don't buy. The products are excellent for the most part, I have found that the DV88+ is quite sensitive to poorly encoded or damaged disks.

    Why all the fuss about the DV88+ you can get the newer DV89 anywhere.

    BTW is there a DV89 replacement on the way if so any idea what it might do?
     
  27. sticker

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    As far as I'm aware the DV79 replaces the DV89

    John
     
  28. Daneel

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    You certainly may say so, but please show me where there is an error in my statement.

    I have no intension of calling you a fool or asking you to change a thing. I'm very glad you are enjoying your system. The only reason I entered down this route of conversation was when you assured someone that sound from a digital output being much the same was a silly myth.

    I'm of the opinion that spending money above something suitable to the job is a waste (assuming what they are after is improved sound, if it's better looks or bragging rights they should go right ahead) and so before someone does so, I'd hope they are sure they are getting something for their money. I firmly beileve they will be unable to tell the difference if they don't know which they are listening to.

    All I wanted to do was save people some money.
     
  29. Jeff

    Jeff
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    It is a silly myth, just like the one that says power amps all sound the same.
     
  30. Daneel

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    As soon as you can show me someone who can tell the difference I'll be happy to agree with you Jeff.
     

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