Can you have to much power ? (watt)

gasolin

Member
I was so lucky that my mother gave me money for christmas, so i can buy what ever i want

What do i want that i can buy for the money + what ever it may cost above what i got. (you guessed it, hifi)

Power, more watt, i currently have a Nad c352 because my smaller nad didn't had pre out, i sold my older nad for 86 euros, my nad c352 cost me 100 euros not a big loss, actually not bad for using the amp more than a month until i wanted a preout for when i wanted,needed to upgrade to more power or better sound quality

Speaker's B&W 607 s1, canare 4s11

I want to try for the 3 time in 25 years a power amp to get as much power clean power as my speakers can handle, as some may know bass heavy music requires much more clean power and just generally clean power to get most out of your speaker (dynamic headroom).

What im looking for is a pa amp not hifi, since most pa amps have more power than most hifi amps for the same price also within my pricerange it can be new pa amp but used hifi amp

I need regular binding post and agin control

OMNITRONIC XPA-350 is for sale with a discount 2x130 watt i 8 ohm OMNITRONIC XPA-700 just a little more expensive 2x240 watt in 8 ohm

Gear4music amp (site)

SubZero SZ-PA600 Class AB 2x200 watt in 8 ohm

SubZero SZ-PA900 Class AB 2x300 watt in 8 ohm , SubZero SZ-PAD400 Class D 2x115 watt in 8 ohm both cost excatly the same

SubZero SZ-PA1200 Class AB 2x400 watt in 8 ohm, SubZero SZ-PAD600 Class D 2x175 watt in 8 ohm both cost the same just a little more than the 900 and 400 above

So how do i know what to buy ?
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Can you have a car with too much horse power. Not really unless you're reckless with the loud pedal and throw it off the road. Same goes for amps, turn them up too much for the connected speakers and you'll simply blow them up. Just as the driver is responsible for the throttle the amp user is responsible for the volume control.

Would I want a PA amp instead of a HiFi one. Absolutely not. Refinement over brute force any day of the week.
 

gasolin

Member
There is gain control to limited the power at 2 or 3 o'clock and still be able to turn it more when playing songs low recorded

It's not about using all the power many times but having enough if you need it and the advantage of having enough power, dynamic headroom when playing dynamic music and bass, as many know bass heavy music requires more power to sound clean and punchy (not lacking power,wattage)
 

Russ_64

Well-known Member
As said, your B&W 607 S1 speakers are: Reccomended amplifier power = 30W - 100W into 8Ω on unclipped programme. The NAD C352 ouputs 80w @ 8Ω so I doubt you will really get much more from adding a power amp unless you are listening at very high levels.
 

gasolin

Member
you might not get it

if you want to play loud, or bass heavy music or dynamic music, you often need more power than you speakers can handle(expecially when having low sensitive speakers).

you need to make the music sound 100% clean and undistorted (unclipped), therefor you need more (if you like to play more than medium loud) so you don't try to play in the area close to the amps limited where it starts to change sound signature, where highs start to get more distorted, more agressive, less control over the bass and a more screaming midrange.


It's not about raising the max spl i can play, it's about the speakers being the limit, not the power from the amp, more control and more clean power, no distortion within the speakers limit.

Try to imagine why high end amps like the hegel 590 and the biggest McIntosh,hegel,mark levinson, krell have so much power, it's not because many have 80db sensitive speaker or wanting to play super loud.

It's because they want control no matter what speaker they have (impedans,sensitivity) and no matter how loud they play or what they play, they want it to sound clean,unclipped within the speakers limited

Just because you have 200 watt pr channel and only have let's say harbeth p3esr, you don't have to use all of the 200 watt


 

gibbsy

Moderator
I think your impasse here are the speakers themselves. Are they good enough to provide what you want from them. You mention Macs and Krell but would you mate the 607s to those amps, 802s certainly. You certainly wouldn't pair 802s to a PA amp.

Speakers are by far the most important feature of any set up, followed by the room that has to host them but every speaker has a level to play to and I think you've reached that level with your current set up and pushing more power into them isn't going to really work well. Work it may, but not very well.
 

gasolin

Member
I didn't mention at all pairing my speakers with high end amps


 

3rdignis

Active Member
I have listened to tracks at the top of a list for dynamic range. What they have in common is those short, sharp cracks of sound and not representative of normal music.
 

gasolin

Member
Try yello they make alot of dynamic music

Problem is for some if they play loud, there speakers and amp don't have enough dynamic headroom
 
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3rdignis

Active Member
The techno bunker playlist on Spotify is about as dynamic as I have heard as are lots of movies like blade runner 2049
 

gasolin

Member
I don't use spotify, it's not cd quality ;)
 

3rdignis

Active Member
It doesnt effect dynamics much.
 

oscroft

Member
Only comment from me... Would I buy a PA amp to play music? Not a chance - I think I'd rather tear my ears off.
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member
A couple things to check out -

1) Distortion levels at the quoted power and how this changes with both power and frequency. Peak power is usually quoted as the point where distortion hits 1%, actually that is pretty high and usually on an exponential up curve a small increase in power will increase the distortion greatly and this will kill speakers. Ideally, you want the lowest distortion possible across all of your normal listening range (0.02% is not unusual).

2) Not all power is equal ! Strange comment but for music which is dynamic the ability of the amp to turn on and off the taps quickly is what you need plus enough headroom to add 20dB to the average listening level. The power supply in the amp is what enables it to have a large enough reservoir of energy to cope with dynamic changes. For class AB this is the transformer size and the amount of capacitance, so for a 100W class ab, which may have an efficiency of 35% should have a 600VA transformer and probably around 40000uF per channel of capacitance. For class D, which may have a 80% efficiency and a switch mode supply then look for 100W look for 300W+ for a stereo supply. A quick check on the power supply strength is to look for damping factors over 150 in the specs as this indicated the amps ability to start and stop the speaker cones.
 

Paul7777x

Member
You’re quite right about requiring plenty of power in short bursts to enable excellent dynamic range.

And the Crown amps are excellent at that. And they are also of ‘hifi’ quality. No question.

The only thing I’d quibble with is your speakers. They are not really designed for clarity at mega volumes, nor for huge dyamic peaks, even with more than enough power. They are good, relatively inexpensive domestic speakers.

I’d suggest a very good preamp and a pair of speakers designed for the job.

I’d sell the 607s and get the job done properly.

These would be a great choice.

Adam T8V

Perhaps these if your budget is too restricted for the 8s



(All priced individually)

Precisely as much power as is required, no distortion and top class clarity at all volumes and serious dynamic range.
 

gasolin

Member
no thanks, it has been many weeks where they have had 4-5 weeks delivery time on the mackies, 6-7 weeks ago it said 4-5 weeks (or shorter) delivery time and still does for the mackies. (covid 19 related ? )

T7V, zeos pantera (z reviews) say the T5V has better bass


Almost all cheap studio monitors has hiss,white noise (passive speakers +amp no hiss,white noise)

I did manged to find a review of my amp (not just whathifi amp of the year 2004), a little surprised about the wattage 120 watt pr channel, can't see if it's peak power or rms.
2020-12-27 20_03_41-352HFW0904.pdf – Google Chrome.png


Mabye not the most tight bass but still okay (from the amp, the speakers are pretty good in the bass)
2020-12-27 20_06_10-352HFW0904.pdf – Google Chrome.png



They are surpose to have 120 watt (rms,peak power ? ) rated at 80 watt rma (peak around 120watt)

It does make my speakers go loud and yes they do sound clear but to keep it 100% clean with normal music, unclipped,undistorted you often need alot more within the range your playing, not so much for being able to play alot louder but to play normal loud, if you can call 80 (or 120 watt in 8 ohm) for normal loud with 84db rated speakers, you just have to remember if people has 50 watt pr channel with 90 db sensitve speakers (that combo it's not party level in a big room, just loud) it means i would need 200 watt for the same spl.

More power if the quality is the same of the amps, you can get more control over the bass and you could reduce brightness when playing loud, meaning some amps just change the sound in the highs when close to it's limted like the sine wave goes more square instead of being round(normal).

Normally i don't play so loud i hear distortion, i want to keep it clean, so im not worried about playing to loud or not being able to play loud enough.

Behringer a800 i read about ringing, what's up with that (related to class d ? ) Behringer A800 Stereo Amplifier Review

Nad 216 THX it's rated at 125watt in 8ohm but i have read many times it lacks some control, tightness, punchiness in the bass when using big cerwin vega's (used within my price range)

t.amp E800 Pro PA Amplifier (class H) review (no thanks) [Review] Thomann t.amp E800 Pro PA Amplifier - [English]

Gear4music subzero amps PA600,900,1200 class A/B, PAD 400,600 class D, have experience with a PA900 (was to much power when i had more sensitive speakers that had very deep deep bass, was fun how much power they could handle)

Omnitronic XPA-350 (2x130 watt in 8 ohm) XP-700 (2x240watt in 8 ohm) crown xli wanna be ? For sale with a discount, no reviews.

Crown XLI 800 2x200 watt in 8ohm expensive, crown XLS 1002 2x215 watt in 8 ohm more expesniove, has dsp so i could cut the low bass under 30hz by as much as 24 db as i remember, improving playback from my tt but also clearity from the midrange




I would like to keep the max price of the price of a Behring A800, which in europe is no more than 200 euros (thomann.de)
 

Dr. Robert

Active Member
More power the better. Speakers need power, you can ruin a speaker by not having enough power to drive it. But forget about stated power compared to volume. my NAIM NAP 200 is only 70w but If I was to go half way up I'd set off every car alarm and have my neighbours beating my door down.
B&W 607 s1 speakers and you're discussing studio power amps? I've got stuff for sale that would drive them to hell and back. Meridian 555 or NAIM 90/3. I drive my B&W CM6 s2 speakers with the NAP 200 and the sound is clean.
If you want heavy bass add a decent powered sub.
Forget the studio equipment, really, and look for a power amp that gives constant power around 50/60 watts. Also The PreAmp plays a massive part in clean sound. You might just think it selects ouput and adjusts volume, I moved from a Meridian 501 to to a NAIM 202 and the difference was chalk and cheese.
 

gasolin

Member
88db is also a little higher than 84db, you have 70 watt i would need almost 200 watt, than we can play equally loud

No subwoofer ass long as the amp controls the bass good and have enough clean,unclipped power

Why would i downgrade on wattage (50/60 watt)

Studio amps or pa amps if you will is possible to get new for not alot of money, if i want a hifi amp with the same power i would have to buy a 15-20 year old "used" amp.

I payed 100 euros for my nad c352 (very good price, older lower wattage nad amps go for 30-50% more) , even if i just wanted to buy a nad c372, i would need to spend more than 300 euros (300 euros if im lucky, bare minimum is 400 euros)

There is just not many reviews of cheap power amps except for the crowns and behringer A800, which for me is decent choices but they are not the only brands and how good is the other brands ? (when i had a subzeos power amp i had alot of fun with it, although slightly brighter than neutral and so much clean power it was a bit to much, like have a to fast car and your almost every day driving not just a little above speed limits but alot more)
 
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Dr. Robert

Active Member
"88db is also a little higher than 84db" are you talking about speaker sensitivity? If that's the case it means an 88db speaker can run on a lower powered amp without creating as much distortion compared to the 84db speaker at the same volume.
" Why would i downgrade on wattage (50/60 watt) " you're not down grading at all. I have an Anthem mrx500 cinema receiver and I bypass the onboard amps(100w per channel) to go to a NAIM NAP 200 and NAIM NAP 175. Don't get hung up on reported wattage, a good 50w even 30w power amp with a good transformer will rinse a poor 100w amp. Enjoy what you ever you buy.
 

gasolin

Member
Don't they have 3 pin uk power plugs ?

Meridian no thanks https://www.meridian-audio.info/public/501_555[1396].pdf

Naim 2x30 watt, thanks but no thanks, they do use special power cable and interconnects ?

One thing i just thought about, is a big av reciever for bi amping and to get the dsp function for cutting the bass at 30-40hz, i mean some av reciewers can do that + have a mic to adjust the sound for under 100 euros

Does that sound crazy ?
 

Dr. Robert

Active Member
AV receivers are not the best for music due the fact you get one psu powering the electronics/dac and the poweramps, if you want to use DSP have you seen these? They seem to get good reviews.
miniDSP 2x4 and are under £100
Maybe look at cheap receiver for the DSP, add a cheap dac and a power amp.


another way to use dsp is software with a mic, check out roon music server software. I use this for my digital collection

You could try an integrated amp(used) maybe a Rotel or Audiolab
What are you using as a music transport? what speakers do you have? have you budgeted for a DAC as well?

By the way that review of the 501 and 555 is rubbish;) I had that setup before my NAIM and it was head and shoulders above the integrated amps i'd had before, it was my first step into hifi seperates.
 

gasolin

Member
Not gonna buy a mini dsp, it requires a microphone and than it would be very expensive

Around £150, umik-1 mic just a little more than £100 (Denmark)

Surround receiver: Most have software and a mic so you can make adjustments, some do frequency adjustments, most or all do time alignment, some adjustments according to the distance from the speakers and the mic (listening position) and then theres basic high pass filter (could also be an alternative to subsonic filter), in my case i think i would do 35hz and mabye -12db pr octave (nothing out of the ordinary) which can improve midrange clarity and better dynamic since your take some of the load in the bass from the speakers, so the excursion is less with a high pass filter compared to no filter = more excursion is possible when playing dynamic music (or make it faster since excursion is not as high when theres no high pass filter)

Nad C352, Nad D1050, i have a turntable,tape deck, cd player and i use my pc with the system, B&W 607 on isoacoustic stands with Canare 4s11 speaker cable, bi wired in the speaker end

I did read that my speaker cable requires about 150-200 hours of burn in, when reading reviews of your amp or speakers you do risk finding out somthing you only notice when reading the reviews, in my case mabye not the thightest,firm bass from the amp.

The bass when the recording is good, is really good, it might just not be the most thighest,firmest bass (amp related that often improves when bridging, have more power/control)
 

gasolin

Member
Which just goes to show you shouldn't believe everything you read ;)

Some in a forum (audiogon) said and also say, that canare say 4s11 burn in takes alot longer than other cables
 

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