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Can there be TOO much info?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Sharpy14, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. Sharpy14

    Sharpy14
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    It all seems so simple. My CRT has packed in, and I have the option to buy a plasma. So you buy a few mags and find out about HD ready and you thank your lucky stars because hey.........who wants to spend 2 grand on a telly to find it is unable to take advantage of new technology. As you sit back congratulating yourself on your initial investigations, and get excited about ordering your new big telly, you decide to log into an online forum because you can never have too much knowledge...............right?

    And then you discover a whole world of different resolutions and pixels, of broadcast quality that may or may never appear, that pretty much no plasmas that are in the domestic domain are future ready, that plasmas that look widescreen actually arent' because they are 1024 x 768, and others that are 1024 x 1024 are not really HD ready although they might be, and upscaling and downscaling and sidescaling......................

    And then you remember you just wanted to buy a big telly, that it will be expensive, and that you don't want to feel a fool because it can't do the next big thing, and that unlike some folk in the forums who seem willing and able to spend another 3k in a few years for a 1920 x whatever the other resolution is, to have a proper HD telly.................you can't afford to do that.

    And then you breathe a sigh of relief, you decide to buy a telly that is apparently HD ready, you decide not to wait until 5000 x 3400 (or whatever) tellys are avaialbe, on the basis that you are dead a long time and life is too short to drink bad wine and worry about pixel resolutions, and you open your AV mag again as it has less doom and gloom and even though it is full of lies, you can gain comfort in those lies.

    Or perhaps I am just suffering forum fatigue and need to lie down in a dark room whilst caressing my broken CRT.
     
  2. Pecker

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    My guess?

    You'll get lots of people here saying:

    "...buy the TV even if it's only 720 & not 1080, because it's miles better than the current PAL format and everyone who's seen one has spontaniously creamed themselves and you're an idiot for not upgrading already and why are you even thinking about it and you downscale 1080 to 720 anyway...".

    Then, in 2 years time when the first 1080 broadcasts/HD discs appear you'll get people saying:

    "...what are you crazy are you still stuck with 720, 1080 is superb and you really can tell the difference and frankly a 720 set was a waste of money and it's like looking through a window when you see a 1080 picture and it's the greatest thing since sliced bread..."

    Oh, and it'll be the same people both times.

    Steve W
     
  3. Rasczak

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    :) There can be alot to take in sometimes. That said if you buying something that costs £2000+ then isn't it worth spending a few hours reading about what you want? The AV magazines can be very wide of the mark sometimes - I can think of numerous times when they have missed crucial information - people on this forum tend to be a bit more thorough...as you have clearly found out ;)

    Pecker :) That's brilliant!
     
  4. Sharpy14

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    So I am damned if I do, damned if I don't.

    I was looking a the new Panasonic PV500, which is 768 resolution (but not true widescreen, unless you stand on one leg with one eye shut and divide it's resolution by the cycles of the moon.......or something), but it is HD ready (this year,m but maybe not next year, and probably definotleyu not the year after......which will make it HD Lite......presumably).

    Then I looked at the Hitachi (choose the 5200 or 7200, they both have "issues") which is 1024 by 1024 which is like.......square (probably) and will chop part of the image off as it upscales to 1080 (maybe), but has a poor contrast rate (comparatively to the Panny......see, I can speak the lingo).

    Both the Panny and the Tachy (mistake there I think), are £2000 give or take but neither are presumably "futureproof"?

    If I buy the Panny, will I have to take it out under cover of darkness (not sure of the contrast ratio of a dark night but will worry about that nerarer the time), and bury it in shame in two years time............can a good HDTV 1080i ready telly be bought for around 2k if the Panny is not up to the job?
     
  5. Pecker

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    I can't really give advice, but I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing.

    First of all, I've only had my CRTs for 18 months, so I'll not be upgrading them. I generally use them for 'casual' viewing, anyway. LCD & PLASMA TVs have poor picture quality in many respects compared to CRTs. So, even with a HiDef LCD/PLASMA, the picture may be better in some ways, but will be worse in others. This may improve in time, but I think I'll wait an see for now. Maybe by the time my CRTs are nearing the end of their lives, LCDs & PLASMAs will have improved significantly.

    My main quality viewing is on a ThemeScene H56 projector. The max resolution is 768 lines, but ther only HiDef input is a DVI input, which I'm currently coming to believe won't work with anything other than a PC as it's not HDMC (or something). I may consider upgrading the projector, but again I'm waiting for a while before doing this.

    The situation is absolutely crazy at the moment. Within the last year What Hi-Fi S&V has had a group review on three 3-wheel DLP projectors, which cost around £20,000 (yup, not two thousand, but TWENTY thousand pounds) each. They were only 720p.

    Who the heck in their right minds is going to buy these, apart from someone with a bottomless pit of money?

    You're clearly only going to go for one of these if you're VERY interested in picture quality. And yet, if you want the very best in picture quality, won't you want to hold on for anothr 12-18 months to see if 1080 takes off at all?

    Surely the only people who'll buy these are those who can afford £20,000 now, and afford another £20,000 (or more) in 2 year's time for a 1080 model.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't include me.

    Steve W
     
  6. pjskel

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    The thing is you can all to easily get hung up on the resolution numbers game, which is understandable. What in reality you need to do, is decide if you're going to take the plunge and then look at the different TVs. Do some/alot of research and ask questions here, aplenty.
    At the end of the day, so what if your HD Ready TV with 1280/1366x720/768 panel isn't cutting edge in 3-5 years time, when 1080 is MAYBE making some in-roads.
    Hell, for most people, digital TV isn't even on the cards for another 5-7 years, never-mind HD broadcasts. Pre-recorded HD DVDs will be they're main feed of HD material, and their Xbox360/PS3.
    Bottom line, if you're ready to jump now, with the way things are, you're new acquisition will more than handle whatever broadcasts you throw at it, as well as your games console and upscaling/true HD DVD recorders/players the market brings forth next year or 2007.

    If you're not ready to make the move to slim TVs, then continue enjoying your CRT based on for the next lot of years until you are comfortable with and confident in moving to LCD/Plasma/whatever display tech is available at the time.

    Nice opening post Sharpy14, btw. :smashin:
     
  7. Sharpy14

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    But if most broadcasts in the US are 1080, and their use of HD is ahead of us, and they have as poor a choice of plasmas as we do (apparently) that can run at that quality.......................why do folk think that within a few years there is going to be a raft of 1080i ready screens filling Comet and Currys, that we are all going to rush to buy?

    I don't get it, and surely folk that buy "HD Ready" sets will be miffed when they discover they can only run HD Lite, not 1080i

    Is Sky hoping to drive the plasma makers to make 1080i tellys, (a forlorn hope if the much bigger US market seems unable to do this)......otherwise why broadcast in a higher resolution that only a tiny fraction of users can access?
     
  8. Petrushka

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    The PV500 is fully widescreen. 720p HDTV is specified as 720 vertical lines and that's it. There's no requirement on the quantity of horizontal pixels.

    Having said that, please note that the plasma pixels in the PV500 are not square or round. Thus you can get a perfect 16:9 picture with a 1024x768 resolution. Don't let the un knowing fool you. The PV500 is currently probably the best there is and it will serve you well for at least five years (though I hope that to be much longer).
     
  9. Stephen Neal

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    Not sure what you mean here. 1080i doesn't have a significantly higher resolution than 720p vertically - because of the resolution reduction introduced by interlacing (1080i delivers around the resolution of an 800p system). The major difference is in horizontal resolution - potentially, though in the US a lot of 1080i HD on satellite is only 1280x1080i not the full 1920x1080i possible - and thus virtually identical in resolution terms to 1280x720p. (Presumably why US HD providers do this?)

    As for "1080i" ready screens - not sure what you mean.

    Almost all (possibly even all) CRT TV sets sold in the US ARE 1080i - there are very few 720p HD CRTs in the US (they convert 720p to 1080i internally) Not many US CRTs can exploit the full 1920 horizontal resolution - though a few come close (though as some broadcasters use 1440 or 1280 horizontal resolution this may not be real issue)

    However if you think there are no 1080i native sets on sale in the US - that is incorrect.

    You may be being confused by the 1080p issue?

    LCDs, Plasmas and DLPs can't display 1080i as 1080i - they are inherently progressive screens - so you can't buy a "1080i native" plasma/LCD/DLP display... Instead you have to de-interlace the 1080i - and either display it at 1080p or scale it to 720p.

    Given that 1080p LCDs are already available (Sharp make one - it's on sale in the UK) - and 1080p DLPs are also arriving, alongside 1080p LCoS and SXRD reflective LCD devices, I'm not sure I quite get your point.

    1080p plasmas are the greater challenge because it is difficult to make smaller individual plasma cells/pixels than currently - so higher resolution usually means bigger screens for plasmas - and 1920x1080 plasmas at the 80" have been demo-ed - not sure if they are available for purchase yet (Expensive...) 1024x1024 plasmas are available - but AIUI they are slightly different because they use a 512 line display and some clever processing I believe?
     
  10. Stephen Neal

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    Yep - the PV500 is quoted as 1024x720 (i.e. non-square pixels - not at all unusual for plasmas)

    As a rule of thumb, DLP and LCD pixels are usually square, but plasmas are often non-square.

    LCDs are often not 16:9 - 15:9 and 16:10 displays are relatively common, as well as 4:3.

    DLP and Plasma are almost universally 16:9 or 4:3. (With 4:3 plasmas relatively uncommon in the UK, and 4:3 DLPs limited to stand-alone projectors rather than integrated rear pro sets.)
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

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    Stephen has summed it up well as ever, I am a 1080i HD user now, I display at 720p or 768p, for me it is really all you need for the majority of currently talked about signals. No need to go ott, look for a native 720p or 768p screen with HD Ready, 32 inch start at £800 upwards
     
  12. Stampax

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    Sharpy - couldnt agree more, i want a plasma too, and my head is swimming. I've done loads of research and still havnt the faintest idea, what is future proof, what isnt, what is a good display what isnt...... and so on..............
    You'd think spending 2k on a TV would be easy!!!!
     
  13. av2diefor

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    Well sharpy,
    just when you thought there was too much info...........................
     
  14. Crazy Paul

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    My head hurts and I've not even started on the beers yet !
     
  15. av2diefor

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    Just buy a pv500,its as good as it gets and will last you ages.

    Enjoy the beer :)
     
  16. Pecker

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    Clearly, if there's any problem & confusion here, it's been caused by the manufacturers.

    If Sky/BBC/HD-USA/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray had all agreed on 720p, and no-one was talking about 1080 (p or i), there'd be no problem.

    If you release 1080 sets more than a year before 720 broadcasts have come out, what do you expect?

    If we're confused about it, what do you expect from Joe Public?

    If there's no quick take up, we know who to blame.

    Steve W
     
  17. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Yep - I've seen a few PV500s displaying the HD Panasonic demo and it looks really nice. If you tweak the MPEG noise reduction a bit the SD DVB-T stuff doesn't look quite as horrendous on it either...

    Seriously though - as plasmas go the PV500 is one of the best HD Ready devices I've seen - though I don't own one and haven't spent hours watching lots of different material on it.

    There may be displays with higher "on paper" resolution - but the other benefits of the PV500 seem to outweigh it's slightly lower than expected figure of 1024x720.

    If someone gave me one I wouldn't complain!

    (I'm waiting until Sky HD actually launches until I even think about upgrading my 50Hz 576/50i 16:9 set though...)
     
  18. Stephen Neal

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    Same situation as the US who have a mix of 720p and 1080i, and have 1080i CRTs and 720p DLPs/Plasmas/LCDs...

    At the end of the day everyone would be best off waiting before buying anything - after all the only HD broadcasts in Europe are HD-1 at 1080/50i at the moment.

    Until we see what Sky and the BBC actually decide to do, or announce their plans in detail, there isn't really confusion - more a lack of any information at all...
     
  19. Ian Ball

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    I am completely puzzled as to why anybody is buying 'HD ready' flatscreens now !
    The fact is it is going to be years before HD broadcasts are the standard and HD DVD disks are the norm. Sky's planned HD broadcasting - believe it when I see it - for next year will be extremely limited and very expensive !
    A superb CRT like the philips 9509 can be bought for £600 and at the present time outstrip any flatscreen for PQ for the broadcasts and dvd's currently in use.
    Why not wait until HD broadcasts are actually taking place and HD dvd's are in widespread circulation and then buy a HD TV !
    Given the amount of new technology the TV manufacturers keep showering on people - bullsh*t most of the time - HD TV's by then will bear no resemblance to the ones they are advocating you buy now and will probably be alot cheaper. Impatience is not a virtue and where HD is concerned both foolish and expensive. :lesson:
     
  20. Ian Ball

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    Hey Guys - Latest breaking news !

    Skoda have announced a new model on sale next week.

    Does 50,000 miles to the gallon ! Runs on something called HDwater.

    HDwater guaranteed to be on sale at Shelf garages by year 2098.

    Quick lads lets get down to Skoda and pre-order one ! :)
     
  21. Sharpy14

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    So, to sum up, if I understand this all correctly.

    Buy a HD plasma because it will give a good 5 years of high quality viewing in HD, but on the other hand don't buy a HD one cos there is no guarantee of the quality of what is going to be broadcast. Having decided to do that, don't buy a plasma at all because it is best to wait until I see what is broadacast, and whoopy doo plasmas will then be ten a penny and will make whatever I buy just now look like buying a fridge if I lived in the artic............

    So, on the basis of all of the above, what cables do I use to connect it, and should I boil them before use in order to remove oxidisation?..........and what type of curtains do I use to best block out UV which may react with some plasma glass......................and if wall mounting, does lath and plaster, or wattle and daub have a detrimental effect on the mid range colour intonation...................

    Ermmm.............I think radio is vastly underestimated, maybe I should just buy an old crystal set.
     
  22. Starburst

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    Well can't speak for anyone else but my reason for buying a HD LCD panel last xmas were two fold.

    First I had been without a big telly for 6 months (41" RPTV blew) and I really did not want a CRT or another RPTV so I fancied a future proof (as much as it could be) Plasma. That fell through thanks to the confusion over the HDMI input card so after using a LCD panel for my PC I looked into a LCD for my main TV viewing. I finally settled on a 32" Philiips LCD which while being expensive has proven to be very very good not only for HD but for SD and is small enough to be moved to the lounge when a 1920*1080 panel becomes viable.

    Second I have HD material and the only way to view HD is on a HD display so I have been enjoying watching movies, tv shows and documentaries for the last 7 months and look forward to purchasing the SKY+ HD and enjoying footy and other content in 720p and perhaps 1080i ( downconverted to the native res of my LCD ).

    I have myself offered the advice that if you have no need for a HD panel right now then perhaps it's a good idea not to invest in one UNLESS you want or need a feature such a the screen size, overall dimensions, weight or you just fancy one.
    Without question prices will fall and functions/performace levels will increase but that doesn't mean I am foolish for owning one right now:)
     
  23. Sharpy14

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    At the risk of being slightly contentious.............if folk don't buy flatpanel screens just now (as seems to be the advice), then presumably Sky will scratch their chin (in 1920 x some other resolution in full glorious colour, and you will be able to see every bit of stubble.......amazing, it's like you are actually there, no, honest it is, my mate knows a pal who says he looked through the window at a telly shop and the picture was so real, the colours so vibrant, the contrast so startling, that his bowels opened and he had to buy new trousers.....it's true.....would I lie?), and decide to not bother broadcasting HD because no-one has panels that can run it, so no-one will pay for their clever boxes and premium services.

    At that point, those that are waiting for the top spec broadacast will shuffle their feet and complain that we lag behind other countries (but remember guys and gals, it was you who told folk not to buy the things).

    And to the fellow forum user who said they didn;t understadn what I meant by 1080i plasmas..............snap, "ma heid is mince" and I have no idea what it all means, the internal logarithms of a plasma screen, the broadcast specifications of here there and everywhere are a mystery to me and I am happy that they remain so, BUT (and like a stripper in a cheap lapdancing bar, it is a big but................)............the frustration of all of this info is painfully balanced by the need not to make a cock up of spending 2 grand.

    And I want a big telly............

    They are sexy..............

    Like Tom (almost) said in the film "it would complete me"
     
  24. Pecker

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    Sharpy,

    You appear to be suggesting that, unless lots of (us?) early adopters take the risk & buy 720 sets which will almost certainly be partially obselete within 2 years, then it's our fault when HD doesn't take off.

    Within 2 years we'll have HD/Blu-Ray discs of one sort or another. It's almost certain that at least some will be 1080. It's almost certaint that none of us will want to own a set limited to 720 when they come out.

    Don't blame us, blame the manufacturers.

    Steve W
     
  25. Sharpy14

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    It's a bit chicken and egg though. The manufacturers will only make stuff if there is demand, so if folk are advised to wait, there won't be the demand, and Sky won't bother broadcasting in 1080 because the maufacturers won't be making the plasmas that can show it, so folk can't buy them.

    Anyway, I am off to see a PV500 which will be:

    1) the best decision I ever make so buckle up and prepare to be amazed

    OR

    2) tantamount to burning £50 notes so I should walk around outside the shop doing just that, whilst wearing clowns feet and hitting myself in the head with a hammer :(
     
  26. av2diefor

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    It is a bit chicken and egg, but the panny 500 will satisfy (anyone) with
    its freeview and sky pq, it truly is the best around.

    Hi def "ready" if you subscribe :)

    Cant help to wonder though how tottie will look in hidef, some look quite tidy on a so so screen, will hidef reveal them as mingers ?

    More to think of :D
     
  27. Pecker

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    Sharpy, you echo my point.

    If those of us here don't know if we're making a superb purchase or burning £20 notes, what chance your average punter?

    All this confusion has been caused entirely, completely, and 100% by the manufacturers/broadcasters not deciding to (A) wait until 1080 sets are ready (don't bother with 720 - bypass it - wait a couple of years), or (B) committing to 720, and refusing to manufacture/broadscast anything in 1080 until after at least 2015.

    They could have done that. They didn't. Their problem if HD doesn't take off.

    I'm rapidly coming round to thinking I'll go for 720.

    My 6 foot wide screen shows very little evidence of line structure, pixels, etc in DVD PAL Progressive. I'm sure it could be better, but I'm not convinced it can be all THAT much better. I think we could end up chasing more and more lines for smaller and smaller improvements in quality.

    Steve W
     
  28. Sharpy14

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    Well, I have just returned from Currys. The PV500 does look good and the contrast blew most of the other similar sized plasmas into the weeds. The HD ready screens were it seems showing a HD loop to show off the technology, but standing looking at a row of tellys in a bright electical shop is never ideal. They looked good though, but not so good that I was licking the screens.

    The Hitachi PD7200 was next to the Panasonic and even though it is 1024 x 1024, did not look as good (although how well Currys set these up, who knows)

    Therefore, on the basis we need a telly and don't want to buy a CRT, it's the Panasonic.

    I do agree the point of diminishing returns with higher and higher resolutions. I remember buying hifi kit and trying to convince myself that the extra money spent had really delivered those subtle nuances that all the reviews talked about........and then concluded it was a load of tosh and that often, the reviewers live in thier own little world where mere mortals cannot tell the differences that they gibber on about.
     
  29. Sharpy14

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    And as for totty looking better in high def, if you stood a babe behind a plain sheet of glass I have no doubt there would be questions about the contrast and motion blurring................or am I being a cynic?
     
  30. Pecker

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