Can someone explain gain and screen types in a TREATED room for me please?

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Hey, I'm going to slowly move towards a dedicated room next year. That is matte grey/black ceiling and walls, with a black rug on dark wooden floor, black velvet/MVEL on the wall with the projector screen on it and MVEL curtains to either side which will be pulled 6ft (or more) for viewing.

I have a 110'' Draper which I can use for ambient light/TV mode. I am thinking however I do have the room for a 130'' screen.. so could I potentially just ceiling mount the 110'' draper AND the 130'' 'new screen' and pick between the two dependant on lighting? Then maybe use lens memory when I want to switch between them?

I've always had a draper ALR 3.0 screen. @mb3195 kindly sent me a sample and the brightness different especially with whites is astounding. I feel it would make a HUGE impact for 3D and HDR. However the black floor is raised pretty high.. is this just because my room is untreated? I'm using an Epson 9300 at the moment but always keeping an eye or two open for a JVC deal OR I'll just grab a brand new JVC when they refresh their line.


My question is really for someone to give me advice on screens as I've seen so many varying opinions. A lot of people say white is best for treated room.. 1.0, 1.2?

I know @Luminated67 has had awesome experiences with a grey screen from a white screen is a proper treated room.

I'm potentially looking at Ricky's screens as they look fantastic. Any advice?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
@JamesBaby has the same issue.

The darker the room, the better the black floor.

Dark isn’t just dark walls and ceilings though, dark is where you have no light reflection off these areas by using velvet, etc.

As you know, I’ve just changed from a 0.8 gain to a 0.93. My black levels didn’t change at all, the only thing I got was a significant bump in brightness.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^Correct @mb3195 with a projector that’s got great native contrast to start with there shouldn’t be any difference in black levels, at least not enough you be noticeable but your brightness will be noticeable.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
^Correct @mb3195 with a projector that’s got great native contrast to start with there shouldn’t be any difference in black levels, at least not enough you be noticeable but your brightness will be noticeable.


Thank you. So if I decide to go down the white screen route, gain around 1.0 ish.. I really need to nail the projector choice first (e.g. a JVC most likely).

Aslong as I stick with the Epson, I'm better off with my Draper 110'' as it will ensure the black level is that little bit more enhanced at the expense of whites?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Yep, if/when I change to the N5/7 I will be on with Ricky to change the screen material back to white.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Yep, if/when I change to the N5/7 I will be on with Ricky to change the screen material back to white.
thanks mate. TBH I am happy to stick with my Epson 9300.. if I can improve the black floor with the Draper and room treatment... I think I will be very satisfied for at least another year.

I've gone off video gaming.. which is what I wanted the JVC for (contrast + nastive 4k lens i find important for games).

just can't look past the fantastic value proposition of epson.. and i think i need to put my money into other stuff.. (new subwoofer, a power amplifier for the speakers).
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
thanks mate. TBH I am happy to stick with my Epson 9300.. if I can improve the black floor with the Draper and room treatment... I think I will be very satisfied for at least another year.

I've gone off video gaming.. which is what I wanted the JVC for (contrast + nastive 4k lens i find important for games).

just can't look past the fantastic value proposition of epson.. and i think i need to put my money into other stuff.. (new subwoofer, a power amplifier for the speakers).

Every time I think I have a few quid set aside something comes up to snatch it away again. LOL

Like you I don’t exactly see living with the Epson as such as bad deal, superb image for what is only 2K yet looks SO much better and blacks that really aren’t at all that bad.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Every time I think I have a few quid set aside something comes up to snatch it away again. LOL

Like you I don’t exactly see living with the Epson as such as bad deal, superb image for what is only 2K yet looks SO much better and blacks that really aren’t at all that bad.


Yup. I also watch 3D and in 3D mode, I find I need EVERY single lumen I can get and thats where IMO the Epson is still a big big favourite of mine. I don't think I can go down in Lumens which I believe is what JVC would sadly offer me. So, for 3D I'd have to upgrade the screen for a new JVC to a white one.

The cost of going JVC will be £5-7k + £2-3k for the new screen. So all in all, £10k. I just don't think its worth that much at the moment.

Maybe if something good second hand popped up, I'd be tempted to swing for it but it'd have to have an iris so I can step up and down the brightness; and the issue of warranty comes into play then. I've had pretty bad luck with electronics recently and I know Epson's warranty is fantastic.

Also with dynamic tone mapping, I take FULL adventure of all the Lumen's of the Epson.


I can't wait to treat my room. If I can lower the black floor further, I'll be a very happy bunny.. and I can put the money else where (e.g. building my extension 😂 😂 😂 )


Maybe in JVC's next refresh it could tempt me as at least I'd know the PJ will be relavant for 2-3 years as that seems to be JVC's new release cycle. Right now the N5/N7 just aren't screaming out to me.
 

3rdignis

Active Member
As you go higher gain you have to avoid hotspotting.

Some gain makes sense to me in a light controlled room...
For sdr you may need a nd2/4 filter to get down to 14/12 foot lamberts.
For hdr use all the light. Consider just the screen for the same reflected screen luminance, 30foot lamberts, a 1.0 or 2.0 gain screen would have the same contrast. But on the 2.0 gain screen the projector would only need to output half the Light, making the room treatment twice as effective.
 

JamesBaby

Well-known Member
I have a Lycra AT screen and when I put the V7 fabric on it the sharpness and brightness is a lot higher. However I too notice that my black level is raised.

Specifically I lose intra scene contrast when there are brighter parts in a dark scene. This is because I don’t have a full batcave.

I’m going to try a darker carpet and painting some more areas like door a frame black.

So for me a lower gain scene is actually helping me at the moment.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Yup. I also watch 3D and in 3D mode, I find I need EVERY single lumen I can get and thats where IMO the Epson is still a big big favourite of mine. I don't think I can go down in Lumens which I believe is what JVC would sadly offer me. So, for 3D I'd have to upgrade the screen for a new JVC to a white one.

The cost of going JVC will be £5-7k + £2-3k for the new screen. So all in all, £10k. I just don't think its worth that much at the moment.

Maybe if something good second hand popped up, I'd be tempted to swing for it but it'd have to have an iris so I can step up and down the brightness; and the issue of warranty comes into play then. I've had pretty bad luck with electronics recently and I know Epson's warranty is fantastic.

Also with dynamic tone mapping, I take FULL adventure of all the Lumen's of the Epson.


I can't wait to treat my room. If I can lower the black floor further, I'll be a very happy bunny.. and I can put the money else where (e.g. building my extension 😂 😂 😂 )


Maybe in JVC's next refresh it could tempt me as at least I'd know the PJ will be relavant for 2-3 years as that seems to be JVC's new release cycle. Right now the N5/N7 just aren't screaming out to me.
I have a Lycra AT screen and when I put the V7 fabric on it the sharpness and brightness is a lot higher. However I too notice that my black level is raised.

Specifically I lose intra scene contrast when there are brighter parts in a dark scene. This is because I don’t have a full batcave.

I’m going to try a darker carpet and painting some more areas like door a frame black.

So for me a lower gain scene is actually helping me at the moment.

the dreamscreen v6 is a compromise. Same sharpness, better AT properties, lower brightness (0.8 gain)
 

ask4me2

Active Member
@JamesBaby has the same issue.

The darker the room, the better the black floor.

Dark isn’t just dark walls and ceilings though, dark is where you have no light reflection off these areas by using velvet, etc.

As you know, I’ve just changed from a 0.8 gain to a 0.93. My black levels didn’t change at all, the only thing I got was a significant bump in brightness.

Our eyes work more logarithmic than linear when it comes to how we experience differences in brightness and even more sensitive to differences in the dark area.

How can a difference of 0.13 in gain make no black level change but a significant bump in brightness?

Have you done more objective meassurements to support your findings?
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
Our eyes work more logarithmic than linear when it comes to how we experience differences in brightness and even more sensitive to differences in the dark area.

How can a difference of 0.13 in gain make no black level change but a significant bump in brightness?

Have you done more objective meassurements to support your findings?

placed the material directly over my old one. Looked identical in everything but brightness and sharpness.
 

JamesBaby

Well-known Member
You can see the difference from my twin Lycra layer screen in this image. I suspect it’s gain is 0.8 or less. The V7 sample is much brighter and raises black level in my room.

I’m considering further treatments first.
D966DB4E-E1A9-4EF8-8D56-0BF494E75844.jpeg
 

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