Can science prove there is no God?

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Deleted member 63670

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Just recently i've been asking myself this, science has given us many wonderful things and also has come up well short in others, can science really prove that there is no God?

I'm not religious, my parents were mildly religious and often sent me and my brothers to Church or similar when I was very young and I suppose i've always believed in some way that there is a God and heaven etc etc, but in recent times i've really began to question it, and what faith I may have had I think has rapidly vanished since our boy was born.

What do you guys think?
 

Flimber

Distinguished Member
Ultimately, I'm fairly sure that the answer to your question is "No".
 

The Bass

Well-known Member
No, there's no way you could disprove something that is meant to be beyond our Universe. Historical accounts could disprove things like stories in religious texts but there is no experiment you could do to test for a supernatural being.

Even if you could somehow, what difference would it make when there are people who think the Earth if a few thousand years old? Faith is always going to come before science for them.
 
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Deleted member 293381

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Faith is based on philosophy and does not have to be proven. Science is based on fact and (usually) has to be proven.

There are scientists who have deep religious convictions and there are priests who are scientists.

The way you have posed the question is telling. Most people would say 'can science really prove that there is a God?'

It is up to you to carry out the necessary research on this matter and for you then to make up your own mind.
 

unique

Moderator
i think the answer is yes, but we are currently far from the stage where we can. whether we do is yet another story altogether
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
The answer is 'yes'. Science can eventually prove there is no God. Once you have established through the scientific method how life originated, and how the universe really began, you have ended the theological theory of origin and finally moved into pure reason.

However, as above, religion is founded on belief not 'fact'. Despite the fact that religion has already been seriously undermined, that doesn't, nor will it ever stop people needing their belief systems.

There are plenty of people out there who are still Pagans, never mind modern religious believers, which proves how deep rooted our need for something 'mystic' and 'spiritual' is over what these people see as 'mundane' fact.
 

Miyazaki

Distinguished Member
I don't think we will ever be able to say what happened at the instant of the big bang, or ever what happened before that.

If there is no God, we would need to be able to say what happened at the big bang, but as no physical laws existed at that point, we will never know.

Faith has nothing to do with science anyway.
 

unique

Moderator
I don't think we will ever be able to say what happened at the instant of the big bang, or ever what happened before that.

If there is no God, we would need to be able to say what happened at the big bang, but as no physical laws existed at that point, we will never know.

Faith has nothing to do with science anyway.

i've been watching a lot of science shows lately, and some of the people who made modern science what it was had literally studied and mapped out things for years, like 12 to 20 years for some things that we now take for granted. they had a huge amount of faith in their work to continue

regarding the big bang. you never know, there could be another "plane" or dimension(s) that maybe some day someone could travel from and spin our heads by explaining the creation of our universe
 

Liquid101

Distinguished Member
It really doesn't matter - Religious belief has no logic. Fact or proof has no bearing on it.

Anyway, when science has produced 'proof' of evolution or the way the world was formed, theologists have always been quick to counter the argument with a new spin on the words of the bible; like re-interpreting the words of a horoscope.

I have several friends who have deep Christian belief systems. I have asked them if they could travel back in time to witness the creation of the earth, or even just be around when Jesus was said to existed; in an attempt to finally prove their faith, would they do it? The answer is always no. They don't want proof, faith is enough.
 

The Bass

Well-known Member
The answer is 'yes'. Science can eventually prove there is no God. Once you have established through the scientific method how life originated, and how the universe really began, you have ended the theological theory of origin and finally moved into pure reason.

However, as above, religion is founded on belief not 'fact'. Despite the fact that religion has already been seriously undermined, that doesn't, nor will it ever stop people needing their belief systems.

There are plenty of people out there who are still Pagans, never mind modern religious believers, which proves how deep rooted our need for something 'mystic' and 'spiritual' is over what these people see as 'mundane' fact.
I agree that it would be possible to prove everything a religion is based on as being wrong but that would only disprove the nature of the God. If it was proven that Jesus was just a man and all of his miracles etc were entirely fictional along with the rest of the Bible you still wouldn't have disproved the existence of a God, just any "evidence" of one based on those texts.

You cannot disprove anything that has the get out clause of being transcendant.
 
Here's how you find God...

Dark Matter is a material that is thought to exist because we see matter move none-uniformly from its supposed forces. The problem is that it presents no reaction to waves of any kind, because it produces the waves that we would use to find it. Take white light for example.. we can break it down to a spectrum of colours, then take red light. We now break red light into a photon, then take the photon. The next stage is to break the photon down into Dark Matter, but we have reached a point where the photon is the lowest form of material that we can interact with.. we are into the world of none-interaction, and devices have to interact with a material to find it.

Now, we can't find Dark Matter yet, but if we ever do, the next stage would be to break Dark Matter down into God. Being as Dark matter is most likely a substance, then God would be the message of that substance...

A mind is a collection of messages, so God is not singular, but multiple messages.

You are looking for a colony, and your question now becomes twisted...

Can science prove that a collection of intelligent messages didn't create the Universe?

This question involves God's brain, and you have to accept that God could not be singular. God's thoughts would not be singular, a message cannot be sent as a single digit, and God has to be a colony of materials.

When you ask.. does God exist? You are sort of describing an ant colony as a single ant. does Ant exist?

Because Ant is an understatement of the colony, you have sort of already turned God into something that would not exist on their own.

If the Universe were made from intelligence, then it would be a colony of intelligence that created it. You are not looking for one thing, God is all things working together. Cogs in the intelligence of matter.
 

SyStemDeMoN

Distinguished Member
Are you saying that God was created by the big bang then ?

As dark matter is thought to of ?
 
Are you saying that God was created by the big bang then ?

As dark matter is thought to of ?

Dark Matter has been talked about, but not given a stage in the Universe. The curtains open for a stage show called 'The creation of the Universe'... Dark Matter is the curtains. Not thought to be part of the show, and ignored, just sitting in the background. But it was the curtains that started the show.

I don't believe in 'The Big Bang'
 

DPinBucks

Distinguished Member
It's notoriously difficult to prove a negative. I assume you mean God as Prime Mover, as Creator? The best that science has come up with so far is to show that there is no need to postulate such an entity to explain the origins and workings of the Universe from the first 10^40-odd seconds after the Big Bang. However, it does not say that the prior events cannot be explained; just that we haven't yet got a theory to explain them.

What science is bad at is answering the question Why? Why is the Universe set up the way it is; how did the physical laws come about in just the way they did? It can explain in very great detail how they all hang together, and to show that they're all interdependent, but it doesn't fundamentally say, for example, why pi is 3.141 and not 3.142. There is possibly scope there for inventing a Creator, but it's a pretty useless kind of concept and one which science is not concerned with.

The other aspect to God is the interfering kind: the one who defines laws, ethics and rules of behaviour, and who especially has a specific interest in humans. The discoveries of science have shown quite categorically that such a being is unnecessary.

I have used the concept of an “unnecessary”, rather than “non-existent” God. In science, nothing is ever proved, least of all a negative. An unnecessary concept is the nearest we can get to proving a negative.
 

choddo2006

Distinguished Member
There are those who put a lot of faith in science. :)

I don't know if you're joking, the smilie would suggest so, but just in case; It's possibly true that some people do put faith in science (e.g. Those who have no idea how a wing works)

But I think it's a fundamental and critical distinction that science does NOT demand faith. In fact, it's entire mechanism is based on the opposite, on having people question theories and put them to the test and produce evidence that either supports or disproves the theory.

And science will never disprove God any more than it already has. Numerous huge breakthroughs have failed to and numerous more will fail to. Some people will always need to believe.
 

m4rky_m4rk

Well-known Member
The question is put the wrong way around. It's very hard to disprove a negative and very easy to create many such conjectures; in fact there are an infinite number of ideas that would need science to prove they are not true.

eg
Can science prove there are no fairies at the bottom of my garden. Not very easily, especially when I add more to my description of what I mean by fairies. For example when questioned I could say they are only visible to me because only I really believe in them then only see them if I have been good and kind to the fairies at the bottom of my garden. You see how it gets harder and harder to disprove my crazy notion. Non believers are automatically immediately excluded from seeing them.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof to be accepted as fact in science and in most areas of everyday life as well. Or at least that's how it should be, and is for many things, except for some reason when it comes to religious claims. For many people religious, or other supernatural claims do not require scientific proof; just faith is required and the normal application of logic is, and some would say conveniently, suspended!

In the case of the fairies at the bottom of my garden its not for science to prove there are none; but it if I insist there are fairies there then I should, using a scientific logical approach, be able to prove there are. Of course I could claim that fairies are beyond science and then everyone would assume I was just a regular nutter.

If I collect a few like minded nutters together I could then setup the Church of Fairies and get a special status in society. Anyone claiming fairies do not exist would then be deemed blasphemous and that would upset me and my followers. The Church of Fairies could then take them to court to shut them up.......and so it goes.

Can science prove there is no god? Can anything prove there is no god? The answer to both is no.

Of course this all depends on what you mean by God. That word can mean many different things.

Can science prove there is a God? Yes, if there is any proof to be had but there is none so far. eg scientific evidence of miracles, proof that praying works, proof that the faithful have a better life, proof of heaven or hell, agreement that the bible is an ancient but accurate description of how the world and the universe was created etc etc.

God like ideas lurk in the gaps in our understanding of the life and the Universe. Its always been that way. The problem for religion is that science is obviously a more successful description of the world and the gaps in our knowledge of how the universe works are continuously shrinking. God has fewer and fewer hiding places.

There will always remain some corners of understanding where our knowledge is poor, and there you will find God like ideas lurking and the people who have faith in them.
 
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choddo2006

Distinguished Member
I don't believe in 'The Big Bang'

and you also think photons (light) which we can detect fine are made of dark matter, which we can't. These debates can often turn a bit personal so I'll preface thus with "no offence but..." your post was a classic example of pseudoscientific gibberish.
 

Flimber

Distinguished Member
The answer is 'yes'. Science can eventually prove there is no God. Once you have established through the scientific method how life originated, and how the universe really began, you have ended the theological theory of origin and finally moved into pure reason.

...

You have not. You'll have undermined some people's belief in their own religious theories is all. You can not prove that God does not exist no matter how tight your science is. God could exist but might have not yet revealed himself to humanity in any way whatsoever. God might have created the Universe by allowing it to create itself as he allowed an infinite number of other universes to create themselves. You can't disprove that. You can undercut biblically-derived religious theories all day long; it's not difficult to do. The Bible et al could be hokum but God per se is a seperate area altogether. Scientists are so keen to dismiss the idea of God just because some yokels believe in 6-day creation and the 6,000-year old Earth but that's their personal belief, unsupportable by science. God as an entity is untouchable by science. Science might not need Him to explain stuff but by the logic of science itself, there can be no disproof of something outside of it's remit. There, I said it :)

Mike.
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
If you want to 'prove' there is no God, surely you have to define precisely what you mean by 'God'
A very large white Caucasian male with a beard? Well actually she's black for a start.

But what I wonder about is that current theories of life the universe and everything all seem to imply that many explanations of what the scientists know depend on explanations that invoke higher dimensions than 3 dimensions plus time.

And if the fourth, fifth, sixth dimensions etc do exist, they are so far outside of our cognitive capabilities (while having an impact on our everyday 3D lives) that quite honestly, anything is possible. So I would hesitate to absolutely and definitively rule out 'higher forms'




What science is bad at is answering the question Why? Why is the Universe set up the way it is; how did the physical laws come about in just the way they did? It can explain in very great detail how they all hang together, and to show that they’re all interdependent, but it doesn’t fundamentally say, for example, why pi is 3.141 and not 3.142.

Did the physical laws come about or is a physical law a fundamental of our universe and we just evolved into a form which took advantage of the way things are? Surely the universe is set up the way it is not for our benefit, but because thats the way it is and we grew into it.

Personally I try and not start thinking from a human perspective, with a view that isn't it marvelous that all these things work so well for us, but isn't it great that we evolved so successfully to our environment. (Except for the England and France football teams which have both defied Darwinism and evolved into completely useless life forms with no obvious function)
 
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