Camcorder HELP Newbie

Cliffhanger79

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Good Afternoon,

My name is Paul Cliff I work for a Forging company in the West Midlands.

I have been tasked with videoing the forging operations so we can later view them when the job is repeated.

We haven’t used any current camcorders but using the camera on video mode has suffice.

The problem is the forging process is to bright and hot and unfortunately it videos a bright blurr so it impossible to capture the particular methods for viewing at a later stage.

I have never used video camcorders before so what sort of camcorder would I need and how much are we talking, also would I need some sort of filter for it so I could film bright metal forming.

If you goto this link Brockhouse - Forgings

you can see the process via youtube, from the video you can see a bright blurr around the metal, unfortunately this video was done by the local newspaper and their camera equipment would cost a fair bit I'd say.

Any recommendations on camcorders and filters?

Any help would be most appreciated as I new to the filming world?

Thanks

Cliffhanger79:lesson::confused::lease:
 
Welcome. This is probably yr boss thinking he can "Do " a website video that will pull-in orders.
Sadly, the high temperature will upset the sensor and you'll need manual override.

I wonder that you shouldn't ask a local friendly videographer to quote. That way you're using quality gear and much expertise. (You wouldn't expect your customers to do their own forging, would you?)

Unfortunately you will need to learn how to use the (whatever) camcorder, then editing and so on - this is not a short-term job..... and extra cost spring up everywhere.

However, before further ado - what's the Budget for this video-project?
That's Camcorder, accessories, decent tripod with fluid head, some Lighting, reflectors and maybe a ND filter. You may need to protect the camcorder from the ambient heat, too.

You should join a filmmaking club and spend a few months attending their workshop sessions; to get used to the various processes . . . .


Whoever thought it would be easy?


BTW It will help if posters can give their film-photo experience - but Budget is always the biggest Ask.
 
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To be honest, I've seen exactly the same effect on TV with their umpteen thousand of pounds cameras.
It wouldn't be an easy task, yes set the camera to manual, expose for the white hot metal (that may need neutral density filters) and then get some big powerful lights in to illuminate the rest of the scene. But I think that would lose the raw and the intensity of the forging process.
The clip I looked at was nice and steady and well done, other than that above I can't really see what else you can do.
 
To be honest, my boss thought we could do it with just any old camcorder. But having a look into it I will probably need a camcorder that supports a neutral density filter, what sort of cameras would support these and what sort of price to they range in.
 
To be honest, my boss thought we could do it with just any old camcorder. But having a look into it I will probably need a camcorder that supports a neutral density filter, what sort of cameras would support these and what sort of price to they range in.
You buy a ND filter to fit the lens mount 46mm, 52mm etc. In my case 46mm.
The problem you have is the extremes of contrast in your work environment. On one hand you have the dark metal of the presses and on the other, the brilliant light from the heated casting. The camera always tries to compromise by creating a mid setting for both conditions, so the presses are dark but viewable and the casting is over exposed. Chelters idea of brightly lighting the presses and workmen should help a lot. You need to balance the extremes of light. Brightly lit presses will compensate for the brilliance of the casting.
You can also compensate for an ND filter by manually reducing the aperture on the camera to let less light in. (keeping the speed fixed) Remember the old films showing a moonlight scene? The films were recorded in daylight but the camera was adjusted to give underexposure to the film.
Just playing with my camera in manual mode, I increased the shutter speed from 1/50 to 1/125 and then closed the aperture. The result on the screen was of a dimly lit room.
 
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What sort of camcorder I am looking for then? Canon, Sony etc...
I don't know the first thing on camcorders so what sort of price are we talking about for just the camcorder and a filter as a start. Bearing in mind my company will want to spend the minimum amount.
 
A Canon Legria HF G25 would be a good starting point.

As already suggested, add on an ND filter to reduce the total amount of light getting into the camcorder and this should work well for you.

You may want to hire something first - maybe even with an operator, to give you some pointers as to the techniques required to get the shots you are after.
 
To be honest, my boss thought we could do it with just any old camcorder. But having a look into it I will probably need a camcorder that supports a neutral density filter, what sort of cameras would support these and what sort of price to they range in.

I think you need to tell us first what camera you used for the original film, it may do what you want.
 
Sorry don't know that as it was done by a local newspaper. So they could have used anything.
 
Before you get a ND filter, get the camera and play with the manual settings. Canon, Sony or Panasonic will be good. My suggestion is a Panasonic HC-V720. Its like choosing a car Ford, Vauxhall etc. The choice will depend on the spec and the price for what you want. Harry suggested you look at a budget to cover your needs.

you will probably work hand held (done this myself in a factory, you don't want anything to get in the way of the workers) so an optical stabiliser is a must. You may need software to transfer the video from an SD card (most popular choice these days) to a DVD or memory stick. If this is to be a serious presentation with a voiceover, titles and music for example, a good video editor is desirable. (Sony or Corel)

As I suggested you need to even the lighting or to ignore the dark machinery and concentrate on the casting. An example may be that you record from the far side of the press and have the glow from the casting light up the faces of the workers. Whatever you chose, you need the overall lighting to be more even so either brighten the total scene or just concentrate on the brightest object.

If you do need an ND filter, £10-15 should cover it!! BUT don't buy until you have found the "filter diameter" of your chosen camera. My V700 is 46mm the Canon G25 is 58mm.
 
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Thats sounds great information, I have found a local camera hire company that would rent me a similar camera for a week with a variable ND filter so I can play with the settings as they said.

The camera is a Canon XA10, they said its a pro version of the Legria one, all for £300.

Think we'll go a play with one of these before we splash out on a decent one.

The video doesn't have to be anything special as it only needs to show the forging process.

As long as I can view the video on the PC and it is fairly presentable then at least that we can save that against

the part number.
 
Other than hairing a Pro (as I suggested before), a Hiring is probably a good move, except you have to lear how to use the thing, even before venturing into the furnace area.

The following thought occurs to me for fill-in light - use fireworks!
You need on that has a moderately long burn-time and gives a consistent white light output. The exact colour is unlikely to matter much as this whole project is not a Fine Art production.
The easiest way would be to approach a UK fireworks manufacturer, so they can provide some sort of quality-control. You should also inform your insurance co and the firework needs to be placed high up, where any sparks can't fall on people/things below. A curved reflector would direct the light to the interesting places.
This is a variation on the magnesium "Flashpowder" used by photographers of old.

You might also contact a photo-filter Co (name to mind Lee Filters- UK), who might be interested/able to provide something to reduce the Infra-red content - your Co. facilities might be good for (filter) publicity, so there might be a "deal" to do at low-cost! Then Dichloric filters have the ability to reflect visible light whilst allowing the heat (IR) to pass through . . . although most photo-filters work by transparency.

Suggest you check beforehand the likely ambient temperature in the works, as camera/filters/operators may dislike the high temperatures I'd expect.
 
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The following thought occurs to me for fill-in light - use fireworks!
You need on that has a moderately long burn-time and gives a consistent white light output. The exact colour is unlikely to matter much as this whole project is not a Fine Art production.
The easiest way would be to approach a UK fireworks manufacturer, so they can provide some sort of quality-control. You should also inform your insurance co and the firework needs to be placed high up, where any sparks can't fall on people/things below. A curved reflector would direct the light to the interesting places.
This is a variation on the magnesium "Flashpowder" used by photographers of old.


OH Harry!!!! Have you ever worked in a foundry? Are you aware of the extreme dangers? For example when I worked in a non-ferrous foundry, a worker forgot to warm and dry a ladle before putting it in a pot of molten aluminium. The explosion splattered molten ally on the roof some 30 feet above. Fortunately for the man, the blast went upwards and not to the side. The point is that the workers need all their concentration on the job and do not need distractions like a Bonfire night party going off around them :facepalm:

As I suggested to Cliffhanger the lighting needs to be balanced. This could be best achieved with a couple of halogen construction lights to brighten the scene around the presses. The molten ingot is being overexposed by the camera compensating for the dark working area. The camera could be closed manually to reduce the "flare" from the ingot OR the surrounding area could be flooded with light to balance the brightness of the ingot.
 
Maybe, but I expected a "foundry" to be pretty much like a furnace - so somewhat unlikely to catch fire...the effect you described is most likely the result of water under the aluminium surface being transformed into high-pressure steam.....

The issue OP has IMHO isn't colour balance - rather it is trying to balance the IR radiation ( which is difficult to remove) and the visible light that reaches the sensor. Unfortunately modern sensors are very sensitive to IR, but for normal filming this is not a problem. The energy in the IR is likely to be very high (since the foundry is consuming many kW to heat the metal. Therefore any halogen lighting would need to be very close to the subject to be anything like acceptable..... if the IR is being reduced by a variable ND filter.

- However, I still think OP should employ a professional videographer, possibly one with some suitable experience.
 
Oh Harry!!!! (again) Its not the hardware, its the people! The example I gave was to show that total concentration is needed at all times and they do not need fireworks going off around them when they are dealing with a white hot casting.
Did I mention colour balance? I am talking about the vast contrast in brightness between a white hot ingot and a dirty, oily press. It is necessary to balance the general brightness of the total scene by lighting the dark work area. The furnace and the casting are bright points but the presses are dark.

Lets give you an example. You have two cars facing each other in the total dark. One car switches on its headlights. People in the other car can only see the lights and very little beyond. Now the other car switches on its lights and straight away the first car is visible despite having its lights shining at the observer. So lighting the dark areas will balance the general brightness.
 
"...It's not the hardware, it's the people...." - eh?
That "firework" is just a light source, surely you understood that? It has to burn for the duration of the shot, but will be very bright and cost-effective, if OP is to light a large area and the further back the easier it is to light evenly. After all he's going to be using ND filters just to get the IR to sensible levels and foundries I've been to are quite dark, so the metal "colour" isn't compromised.
IR sources are almost impossible to judge, since we cannot see IR. However the camera does and it will show . . . . I think I well understand the issues, but it seems this is no longer being read by OP.
Furthermore don't the casting employees wear ear-defenders? -, so what's this about fireworks "going off"? Foundries are very noisy, I doubt anyone would hear - they might see, as it will be considerably brighter than the ambient....but only because they can't see the massive IR....
"Firework" is a source of light (no Bangs!) - how else would it be any use?
 
That "firework" is just a light source, surely you understood that (Is this comment needed?)
Its a funny thing, I used to use "Snowflake" fireworks for lighting, magnesium based if I remember correctly, they just did not last long enough, then along came halogen lighting.
So what makes fireworks better than lighting? Lighting is consistent and reliable.
 

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