Answered Buying advice for speakers and amp

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by toon master, Oct 20, 2017.

  1. toon master

    toon master
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    Little bit of advice guys please

    I’m in a fortunate position to be collecting a clearaudio concept turntable for a bargain price this weekend.
    Therefore I’m eager to get a suitable amp and speakers to take quick advantage of it!
    Will be going in my office which isn’t particularly large (3m by 3m approx) so space is at a bit of a premium

    Don’t want to really go over £1000 and £800 or lower would be fantastic. Will be used solely for vinyl in the foreseeable future.
    Any help appreciated!
     
  2. Best Answer:
    Post #9 by toon master, Oct 21, 2017 (1 points)
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  3. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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  4. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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  5. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Let me question the statement that you will use it in your office, but only use it for the Turntable.

    First is this a Home Office, or a Business Office?

    Second, if you want music while you are working, it is something of a distraction to get up ever 15 minutes to change the record. An amp with Streaming could give you an unlimited supply of music for those times when you want background music, and for those times when you want more serious listening you could use the turntable.

    What I am really saying is be sure of the features you actually want before you nail down your purchase.

    With a small 3m x 3m room, I would suggest bookshelf speakers.

    And for £800 or less, that leaves you about £300 for an Amp and about £500/pr for speaker. Though, of course, there is some flexibility in that.

    So, this would be my suggestion -

    Monitor Audio Silver 1 (6") - £399/pr (while supply lasts) -

    Monitor Audio Silver 1 Rosenut Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Monitor Audio - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    If you think you can perhaps handle bigger speakers, then consider these -

    Monitor Audio Silver 2 (8") - £499/pr (while supply lasts) -


    Monitor Audio Silver 2 Walnut Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Monitor Audio - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    For an amp, with a somewhat restricted budget, Yamaha always comes up good value -

    Yamaha AS501 Integrated with DAC (85w/ch, MM Phono) - £299 -


    Yamaha AS501 Amplifier with DAC - Superfi

    There are a few other places that have this amp in this price range, give or take a bit.

    These speakers have decent bass and are very clear. [CORRECTED] These speaker have been replaced by the Silver 50 and the Silver 100, so they are selling the Silver 1 and Silver 2 low until the run out of stock.

    As far as the amp, there is virtually nothing that beats it at that price. Also check Richer Sounds and Exceptional AV, they typically have good prices on Yamaha equipment.

    With the Monitor Audio 1 (6") that brings the total to about £700, with the larger 8" Monitor Audio 2, the price eats the full £800/pr.

    Monitor Audio - Silver 1

    Monitor Audio - Silver 2

    Because of the discounts, you are saving between £200 and £250 on these systems.

    Just a suggestion.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  6. toon master

    toon master
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    Ha, yeah I call it an office but my wife would definitely say it’s a games room/man cave!!
    I guess streaming is always a good option to have too.

    Thanks for the suggestions
     
  7. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    You could always go turntable > phono stage > preamp > active speakers.

    Something like
    Clearaudio nano v2 £295
    Yamaha wxc50 £280
    Yamaha hs8 £500

    If you don’t mind going away from the clearaudio phono there are plenty in the £150-250 mark that would bring it into budget. The Cambridge cp2 is £150 for mm and mc and is the same width as the wxc50 as an example.

    I think the wxc50 would also go well style wise.
     
  8. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Did I misread?

    Is the budget £800 or £1800?

    Because that extra £1000 makes a big difference.

    If having Network Streaming interests you, then at least look at the -

    Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, FM/DAB/DAB+, 100w/ch, Network Streaming, Bluetooth, DAC, Phono, ... £699 -


    Yamaha R-N803D Silver Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    Yamaha R-N803D Black Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    R-N803D - Overview - HiFi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

    In bookshelf speakers with decent bass, consider the -

    Monitor Audio Silver 100 (8") - £650/pr -


    Monitor Audio Silver 100 Walnut Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Monitor Audio - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    I think I made a mistake in my previous post referencing the Silver 100 and Silver 200. The Silver 200 are actually floorstanding speakers.

    The Silver 50 are 5.25" bookshelf speakers. (£500/pr)

    The Silver 100 are 8" bookshelf Speakers. (£650/pr)

    Remembering that Bookshelf speakers will need Stands, which is an extra cost.

    That eats about £1350 of your budget, plus a bit more for Stands, and misc Wire and Cable, which will probably add another £200 to £250 to the cost (best guess). So, that takes you to about £1600.

    There are certainly other speakers in that price range, for example -

    DALI Opticon 1 Walnut Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - DALI - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    DALI Opticon 2 Black Ash Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - DALI - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    Focal Aria 906 Walnut Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Focal - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    B&W 685 S2 Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Superfi

    KEF Q350 Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Superfi

    I recently read a review of the Kef Q350 (latest version) indicating they had incredible Sound Stage.

    Tannoy Revolution XT6 Speakers - Superfi

    I think I would be reluctant to go bigger than Bookshelf in that small 3m x 3m room. You could go with small Floorstanding, but they tend to need more distance from the wall behind, and in a smaller room that gets more difficult.

    Again, while there are better amps than Yamaha, expect to pay more and get less.

    Other Amps that might be of interest -

    Yamaha A-S801 Amplifier - Superfi

    Musical Fidelity M3i Amplifier - Superfi

    Rotel A12 Integrated Amplifier - Superfi

    Rotel Stereo Integrated Amplifier A14

    Make sure you understand the Features and Power that each amp is offering.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  9. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    From the above, I am assuming g that you are not yet into vinyl and it is the prospect of getting a turntable cheap that is turning your head. .. you know the parable of the poor man making hot water soup... He sits down and makes a fire and starts boiling water. People in turn come up to him and say ... That's not soup that's boiling water, but look , if you add a little more water, I will add a potato and we can share , next another person comes up and says , add a little more water I have a carrot etc etc and eventually he and they have a big cauldron of stew... And all are satisfied.
    That is the situation you are heading into , except you have to pay for the potato and carrots and there is less likely hood of you being satisfied. ..
    Vinyl is the past, it's a nostalgia trip for many , and an engrossing hobby for a few, and a money pit for some others. CDs are the present, and streaming is the future. Get what amplifier kit and speakers you want with the intention of streaming and playing CDs . I would recommend a reciever capable of FM and DAB also... Specific models I will leave to others, confident that any of the main makes will be much better than any signal available from a vinyl record pickup. Even if the amplifier doesn't stream, a simple 30£ Chromecast audio will, and at better quality than any vinyl can produce.
     
  10. toon master

    toon master
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    Best Answer
    The budget really needs to stay around £1000 for clarity. (for both amp and speakers)

    dannielll- no I have had a current setup for vinyl. In fact I'll be listing my Pioneer PL-530 turntable shortly!
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  11. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    Ok . That's the only scenario where vinyl makes sense... when you already have a library. The general principle of 2:1 for speakers to amplifier price seems sound enough... So a 300 to 400£ amplifier reciever with phono stage And 600£ on speakers ...
     
  12. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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    Indeed and so true.

    Except that cds are also now the past.

    Streaming and SSD storage are the present.
     
  13. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    We are on the same page there... The marginal advantage of CDs is that they are mine... I can play them again and again and no-one can cut me off...
     
  14. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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    Agreed sir. I have mine all ripped to Apple lossless in iTunes though. Soooo much more convenient and there is no difference in sound quality that I’ve ever been able to detect.

    I still have the cds boxed up though. Just in case.
     
  15. martimu

    martimu
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    What cartridge is on the clearaudio? MC or MM ( or high output MC)?
    This will make a difference between what amp you might choose or if you need a separate phono stage

    PS vinyl can be excellent and far more enjoyable to play than cd or streaming. It's not so hot for background listening. Every chance of having a great sounding system with the deck you are getting
     
  16. toon master

    toon master
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    It is the MM cartridge I believe.
     
  17. martimu

    martimu
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    Ok that means that most amps you can buy that have an internal phono stage should work well.

    If you want something straightforward that should work well out of the box then check out rega amps as they tend to have above average phono stages at the price. Stuff from Henley designs often have good stages too ( both companies do a lot with decks so tend to put a bit more emphasis on that element)

    If going second hand then there is a multitude of choice! Speakers wise I'd determine where they are going to sit in the room to narrow down your choices. If the need to go in corners or back up close to a wall there are designs that cope better than others. If you can put them wherever the choice opens up
     
  18. toon master

    toon master
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    Cheers martimu
    Looking around the room one speaker would have to go pretty close to the wall so I will have to consider that.
     
  19. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    That vinyl can be "excellent" is not in question, it certainly can be excellent for vinyl. A more expensive deck, arm, cartridge, cables , preamp should be objectively more excellent or simply better than less costly alternatives . Whether it is "far more enjoyable than CD or streaming. " is totally subjective and thus unprovable.
     
  20. martimu

    martimu
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    Please read what I said, not what you think I said - I used the words 'can be' and 'to play'. Part quoting to make a point is deliberately misleading.

    Frankly just handling a record and its packaging is more enjoyable than a digital equivalent. I also find it far more satisfying when the broadband goes down.:D

    You don't like vinyl we get that, there are plenty of people on here that do (and many that prefer it) And yes it is totally subjective as there are so many variables to it. It is a different medium, sounds slightly different, it's not straight line or as accurate. All well known and documented.

    Doesn't mean it cannot amazing or even preferable; it is a different experience. I've got a box set that cut was cut live direct to vinyl in the studio. Nothing else I've heard digitally comes close. Does that mean anything, probably not. Only that I can't get it on a cd or via streaming and boy would I would have missed out on some wonderful music if I'd limited myself to your rules. Is that not what's all about listening to and discovering great music? The kit is just a medium. Who cares if someone wants to do that via vinyl?

    Given that toon master bought the deck he's asked for advice on Amp and speakers not whether or not streaming or cds are better. He didn't mention if he had a collection or not, I didn't make that assumption
    I saw a sensible suggestion that he may want to include streaming in an amp so both options are available. Not instead of but as well as.

    Source vs source is a totally different debate and a totally circular one, done to within an inch of its life across many forums.

    If giving advice on a thread perhaps it would be fair to set out your stall.
    I list my kit in my sig for that very reason. If I'm banging on about valves amps people can see I own some and therefore are likely to show a bias in that direction. FWIW I stream, use cd, and a record deck.

    All are enjoyable ways to listen to music. Records are more involved and on this point alone listening this way CAN be far more enjoyable

    Price vs performance is not a stick with which beat over someone's head. People spend a fortune on a watch that essentially does the same as a cheap digital version but not quite as accurately, yet they prefer the experience owning the mechanically crafted version. Others aren't bothered (me included) and watch is just there to provide a reference to time in an accurate manner. Are they wrong for choosing anything other than a cheap digital one, no.

    Nothing wrong with you feeling that vinyl is not as good as the alternatives, but not understanding why this may not be the case for others is bizarre. Why bother posting on threads about vinyl if you don't like it?

    If toon master decides later on that he doesn't get on with vinyl then it sounds very much like he'd be able to sell it on and probably get his money back. Still being left with a nice amp and speakers.

    toon - hope you get a good set up together let us know how you get on!
     
  21. toon master

    toon master
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    Oh I know I will love it, don’t worry about that!
    I have a small collection at present, around 20-30 records but I love them all!

    The amp situation which I knew nothing about has been enlightening so far. Just thought about an amp for the turntable but am leading to a multi purpose one now.
     
  22. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    Hi martimu

    I like your analogy with the watches. It works on so many levels on the distinction between modernity and tradition. I recall walking down the haufbannstrasse in Zurich in 1972, and looking at the fabulous mechanical timekeeping machines in the shops and comparing them with the cheap electronic timex or Sinclair I had at the time and asking myself why? .
    I would have more prosaically have considered a mont blanc fountain pen and a gel pentel. Both will write my memoirs, should I every deem myself worthy, with the gel pen perhaps more fluently...... And I have lusted after a mont blanc .
    I had assumed that he did not have a vinyl system to hand, nothing in his first post indicated that . That he has the other elements it would have made sense to listen to his new deck with the older kit, and then identify what he needs. However I had allowed for that possibility... Having a library , seems to me a rational reason for replacing a vinyl turntable.
    I don't hate vinyl, I don't hate vinyl users, . If I have a dislike it is an assumption and an assertion, by many in the vinyl camp that their choice is superior, when any objective measurements show that it simply is not so. At least in this your stance is reasonable, as our previous postings would conclude... You simply enjoy it more.

    I view the current vinyl revival as a momentary fad or nostalgia trip and those thousands of Crossley record players in Currys etc, as so much junk which will shortly end in earth fill. The more expensive kit will survive because it works much better, and it's owners take a joy in keeping it alive...
    We can agree that If the op buys a good amp reciever with streaming capability, and good speakers , then he is set for the long term..
     
  23. droidlike

    droidlike
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  24. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Then consider the same speakers I already suggested, but look at this amp instead - on the assumption that Network/Internet Streaming as any value to you.

    The Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver is very similar to the RN803 but with 80w/ch, and it can be found for a very bargain price from several sources.

    Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver, AM/FM, 80w/ch, Network Streaming, DAC, Phono,..... - £350 - (£450 retail) -

    Yamaha RN602 Networked Stereo Receiver - Superfi

    Yamaha R-N602 Black Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    Yamaha R-N602 Silver Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

    Here is a long thread discussing the Pro's and Con's for the Yamaha RN602 Receiver -

    NEW: Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver!!!

    Generally people were very happy with the sound quality, the only real complaint regarded Internet Radio which did not have enough local memory capacity. Though Streaming Services were fine.

    Here are the specs on that amp (RN602) -

    R-N602 - Overview - HiFi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

    Again, Yamaha brings outstanding value to amps and receivers.

    £350 = Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver
    £400/pr = Monitor Audio Silver 1 (6")
    -------------------------------
    £750 = Total (plus the additional cost of wire, cable, stands,...)

    £350 = Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver
    £500/pr = Monitor Audio Silver 2 (8")
    -------------------------------
    £850 = Total (plus the additional cost of wire, cable, stands,...)

    £350 = Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver
    £500/pr = Monitor Audio Silver 50 (5.25")
    -------------------------------
    £850 = Total (plus the additional cost of wire, cable, stands,...)

    £350 = Yamaha RN602 Network Receiver
    £650/pr = Monitor Audio Silver 100 (8")
    -------------------------------
    £1000 = Total (plus the additional cost of wire, cable, stands,...)


    This illustrates the possibilities within your budget range, though there are other speakers to choose from based on Room Acoustics and your Personal Preference for sound.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  25. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    He is in sales, would you expect him to alienate any of his customers? Saying something is the standard is low cost... The standard for current is the ampere there are bigger and smaller currents
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  26. toon master

    toon master
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  27. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    That Yamaha seems to be the business. Maybe not surprising, that company has been in musical instruments for 100 years. Their symbol is 3 tuning forks,
     
  28. droidlike

    droidlike
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    >> The standard for current is the ampere there are bigger and smaller currents

    Here we are talking about music play not electrical engineering ;)

    so again

    in music play

    the standard is vinyl

    Michael Fremer talks HiFi
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  29. dannnielll

    dannnielll
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    So here we go again. The gold standard in my opinion is the live performance. In the Chad interview he refers to dsd and pcm digital files at high Res as " awesome " and vinyl as the" standard" . Leaving aside the American tradition of hype, awesome , which should refer to divine intervention, means good to excellent. , What he said with strong conviction was that the mastering process was the key to good sound... I think we can all agree on that.

    In the Freamer interview, he made a strong pitch for a good hi fi set up and against MP3 particularly low rate MP3. , we can all agree with that. His rant against measurement and cheap instrumentation, I would take with a grain of salt. Double blind testing is the only way of measuring human response , and even this is fallible. The sequence in which we hear things alters our perception.
    I believe that where any part of the reproduction chain introduces a "sound", it is not a positive attribute, it is a defect.... With the exception of tone controls, and devices deliberately set up to alter the sound.. reverberation chambers, pitch altering etc. That many people have grown to like these defects , is not in question. Just like the limited bandwidth of 1940s am broadcasts foistered a style of singing .. Bing Crosby, which suited the mellow tones of those speakers, fashion follows function..... And for many people Bing is the standard....
     
  30. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    #2 Best Answer
    Format vs Format vs Format vs Format ( CD vs Vinyl vs Flac vs MP3 vs DSD) is a wasted argument. This assumes that there is one definitive format that will serve all people all the time, there is not.

    For me because the bulk of my collection is in Vinyl, a turntable/vinyl is the best format, because if I reject it, then I reject 90% of the music I have available to me. But, though the bulk is Vinyl, that doesn't stop me from buying a CD Player and enjoying CDs. And, perhaps in other circumstances, I would also have Network Streaming.

    The point is, you don't have to pick one and only one. You can spend and buy multiple formats as you see fit and in proportion to your need and budget.

    A good Audiophile system will likely have access to all formats, each serving their own purpose in the greater system.

    So, in a sense, the Gold Standard Format is the format you have. If you hundreds of CDs then CD become the best format for you. If you have hundreds of vinyl album, then that becomes the best standard for you. If you are a younger person with the bulk of his content in digital files, then likely Streaming becomes the best for you.

    However, being in predominantly one format, does not prevent you from branching out into other formats that appeal to you.

    There is no one answer beyond - what you have, what you like, and what interests you. It's all good.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
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  31. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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    Indeed.

    And the recording quality matters vastly more so than the format anyway.
     

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