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Buy dd/dts now or wait for other formats

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by RecoilUK, Apr 19, 2001.

  1. RecoilUK

    RecoilUK
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    Whats going on with all these new sound formats i,m hearing about, when will they be available and will they be worth the wait, more importantly has anyone got the inside nod, on which formats are actually gonna be supported.
     
  2. Space

    Space
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    I suggest you wait and miss al the fun you can have with todays formats. :D

    If you're really worried I suggest you buy an amplifier that is at least prepared for the latest DD-EX and/or DTS-ES formats. Some amps have full support (special decoder+extra internal amp), some have it partially (special decoder onboard, but no extra amp; only level out) and others don't.

    Denon 3801 supports DTS-ES and unofficially DD-EX. It also has 7 onboard amps.
    The Yamaha RXV-1000 supports DTS-ES and DD-EX, but you'll need an extra amp.
    Well, the list goes on...

    Han

    [ 20-04-2001: Message edited by: Space ]
     
  3. Guest

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    WAIT!!! :eek:

    PRO-LOGIC II will be coming this summer.

    I am just finishing my PhD, and have been looking forward to rewarding myself with a Sony STR-DB940. However, thank God I did not buy it. Sony are now coming out with a new 6.1 amplifier for a few quid more, and Kenwood are about to release a DD 5.1 and Pro-Logic II THX select amp for abit cheaper.

    In my opinion, Pro-Logic II is definitely worth waiting for, from what I have read, it will really bring a new life to all of your video collection, plus TV and music.

    Ultimately, it would be a shame to buy an AMP now, and miss out on years of Pro-Logic II (when you buy a new AMP).

    That's just my 2 pence
     
  4. pavlos

    pavlos
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    I have the Sony STR 940 for some time now, I was not aware that Sony is coming with new 6.1 receiver, can you please provide to me some more information on the new sony receiver :)

    Thanks in advance

    Pavlos
     
  5. MarkB

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    Why not buy an amp that can be upgraded by RS232 like the Denon AVC-A1SE, I'm sure that it will be available with DPLII onboard in the summer.
    Mark B
     
  6. KAO

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    Buy whatever you want, and buy it now. You can wait forever for the 'next big thing'. New formats ar coming out all the time...why deny yourself all that enjoyment just so you can say 'my amp can decode all 2 titles that come coded in DTS-XS or whatever'?
     
  7. Matty N

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    Either:

    i) buy cheap and upgrade every year or two,

    ii) buy medium (<£1000) and "put up and shut up" for the next few years

    iii) or buy big and upgradeable (£2000+).

    hopefully the latter will get at least five years before it ends up in the bedroom or the second lounge!

    [ 20-04-2001: Message edited by: Matty N ]
     
  8. Guest

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    Yes, It's called the STR-DB1070. You can check it out at www.unbeatable.co.uk, if you do a search for Sony receivers. It's also mentioned in this months what hi-fi and What Video & TV. The Receiver is out in July.

    Having Said that, Sony are coming out with a whole range of new receivers, as you can see on unbeatable.
     
  9. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Pro Logic 11 is here already and has been for several months. Yes it is worth the wait, it is a major jump up from PL 1. (and it does other things as well). I would urge you to hold out until you can get a PL2 receiver. I know of one at £500 already and it isn't a SONY. Onkyo I think, infinately prefereable IMHO.

    Good luck with the writing up of the PhD, it's the hardest bit, I treated my self to a high end turntable when I finished!! I felt I deserved it, you will know what I mean!

    MarkB, I hope you are right about Denon upgrading their SHARC processors. I know they are planning to in the US of A but we in the UK don't always get the same treatment, do we. My understandng is that they have made no official comment on this yet. In my book that means NO despite what we want / expect.

    I hope they do but Denon aren't too hot on the after sales front.

    Here's hoping for Denon owners.
     
  10. RecoilUK

    RecoilUK
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    What exactly is DPL2????? and do the manufacturers call it that??
     
  11. Banjaxe

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    Dolby Prologic II is a new method of decoding matrix encoded surround sound - surround sound encoded in 2 channels. It improves on Prologic by giving stereo rear effects instead of mono and by removing rear channel high frequency bandwidth restrictions. The good news is that it can do all of this with existing material encoded for Prologic. I've been very impressed using it for everyday TV viewing on my Meridian processor (a 568).

    It's also pretty good at giving a reasonable surround experience with non-encoded material like music CDs (although the results are very dependent on the material). The Meridian gives access to parameters like soundstage width, depth, and panorama (extending some of the stero effects from the front to the rear). I still usually use the Meridian Trifield mode for music though.

    "DPL2" is probably just one of the preset names on one of the other decoders that are shipping now. Meridian call their presets PL2Music and PL2Movie (PL2Music has the adjustable parameters).
     
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  13. StuartBooth

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    When I first saw this topic I thought, "Here we go again" as it's a question you can apply to just about anything I suppose.

    - buy a DVD player with DVD recordable around the corner?
    - buy a new CPU when there'll be a faster one shortly?
    - buy a motorbike with next year's model an improvement?

    Wait and wait and wait. Saves loads of cash though! I'd be 'rich' if I hadn't become interested in Home Cinema and started buying magazines, DVDs, and LOTS of h/w. The amount of money I spend each month on this hobby... Ack! Still, it'd be spent on SOMEthing.

    But on reading this thread there is a good thing to shop around for as others point out, and that's DPL-][. If taking just DD and dts into account as the topic asks about, definitely not worth waiting on IMO.
     
  14. RecoilUK

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    OK so DPL2 basically converts a DPL signal and gives you something comparable to DD(correct?).

    Then we have DD-EX and DTS-ES formats which, as far as I can make out, add 1 or 2 more effect channels to whats there already depending on the configuration that you setup.

    So if DD is 5.1, then DD-EX and DTS-ES can give you 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 configurations(correct?).

    One more question ----- if I get a DD-EX and DTS-ES Amp will my DVD player need upgrading or can it supply the correct signals already??????
     
  15. Matty N

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    As long as you feed your amp/processor with a digital connection (optical or coaxial) it will decode anything it is capable of, pretty much regardless of the player (as long as it is fairly recent - second generation).

    BTW - many believe coaxial is a better connection to use.

    Also be aware of DTS ES Discrete - this is another permutation on the EX/ES theme that supplies a completely discrete audio stream to the other 5.1 speakers, as discrete as the left and right channels. Many people believe that this benefits in better clarity, three dimensionality and spacious precision than a "matrixed" ES/EX signal used in THX EX and standard DTS ES.

    Have Fun!
     
  16. Guest

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    Let me state this from the off "I HAVE NOT HEARD PRO-LOGIC 2".
    There now that that is out of the way realistically i have great difficulty in accepting that PL" is a 5.1 representation for several reasons
    I HAVE over the years heard very good (read expensive) Pro-logic or matrix decoding and as most people will accept good Pro-Logic/matrix decoding/presentation is in reality a much harder thing to do than todays digital equivalents (DD/DTS). But the fact remains that in processing (which includes constant monitoring and adapting) an analouge stereo or nicam source i have yet to see anything that compares to the dynamic range and S/n ratio's that are the stronghold of the digital domain
    Are we talking about "true stereo" surround's? How is this possible i am betting it is more a pseudo type stereo already employed by some high-end alternatives at a much wider bandwidth
    Of course i am likely to be shot down in flames here but from a technical standpoint this advanced dsp is still derived from a standard 2 channel analouge source.
    I look forward to being humiliated
    (P.S PL2 for music? surprise me some more, i must of heard a 100 different dsp enviroment settings and only the Meridian tri-field and maybe the lexicon logic 7 cuts the mustard with music IMHO.

    Regards

    SteveEX
     
  17. Matty N

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    Steve,

    I also have not, as yet, heard DLPII but I have heard DTS Neo 6. The other evening, while watching some dire quality satellite broadcast of a fairly recent film, I had the DTS Neo6 engaged and was amazed to have a sound effect (the main one being used at this point in time) pan from centre to right to rear right to rear centre, left rear then front and centre again. It was truly stunning. I wish I could recall the film for you, but suffice to say the effects positioning was remniscent of a poor (read poorly accurate and OTT effects usage) DD5.1 soundtrack. From 2 channel this is impressive.

    Don't get me wrong - the Neo6 doesn't add anything to the signal, it doesn't (to my knowledge) increase the dynamic range or composition of the incoming signal - but it does a very convincing job of trying to distribute effects to where they should be in order to sound good, while maintaining a good front soundstage and locking dialogue to the screen.

    Whatever shortcomings it may have, it certainly breathes life into a lot of old movies that had poor DPL encoded soundtracks.

    As for music - it has a music mode that maintains left and right channels (for stereo image) but extracts some info to create a more 3d soundfield using rear speakers also. Not to my taste but I am a 2 channel = 2 speaker purist!

    I wholeheartedly look forward to hearing DPLII, if it is anything like better than DTS Neo 6 it will receive a groundbreaking reception to especially with the average consumer that wants big sound for little outlay.

    Matt
     
  18. Guest

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    Yes i too have used DTS Neo6 extensively and find it's result's a mixed bag and personally do not see it as anything more than a dsp rather than a new decoding format. There another recent thread on this board with a post buy the well informed Stuart. M. Robinson you is proficient in both Neo 5 and Pro-logic 2 and remarked on Neo 6 as being markedly crude compared to the technical glory that is the new Dolby system, i don't know and maybe i am just being "a ludite/small minded" but i am struggling to raise enthusiasm for any new system that at best is unlikely to be a competitor for todays 7/7.1 fully discrete, no bandwith. no limited (to an extent) dynamics and so on. Maybe this is not an important factor as i am never truly astounded with tv (terrestial) and video anymore and honestly find the soundtracks to some of the newer adverts (tv) to be the best examples of matrix encoding.
    there we are........

    Regards

    SteveEX
     
  19. Banjaxe

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    I don't think anyone, especially Dolby, are trying to claim that Pro Logic II gives the same kind of surround experience as a discrete multichannel system.

    What it does do is both improve the experience with existing Pro Logic encoded material and make a pretty good effort with non-encoded music. Until Sky or OnDigital adopt Dolby Digital or DTS there's an awful lot of material out there that can benefit from Pro Logic II.

    When I was listening to "Walk On By" tonight on BBC2 it definitely sounded like I could here stereo coming from my rear speakers. Before I upgraded to Pro Logic II I used to use the Meridian "Steered Rears" option in Pro Logic and to my ears I now hear a lot more stereo from my surround speakers.

    I wasn't a fan of DSP modes that try to simulate surround from stereo until I got my Meridian processor. Although I still mostly use the Meridian Trifield and Music modes Pro Logic II compares quite favourably.

    There's a quite detailed review at
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_1/dolby-prologic2-3-2001.html that describes some of the more technical aspects.

    I was lucky enough to get Pro Logic II as a free download ( after paying #3500 for the processor :eek: ) but I really do think it's worth having and probably worth waiting a few months for.

    [ 22-04-2001: Message edited by: RonnieBr ]

    [ 22-04-2001: Message edited by: RonnieBr ]
     
  20. Guest

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    you : read who
    DTS Neo 5 : read 6
    7/7.1 : read 6/7.1

    ETC ETC....

    Sorry!

    Regards

    SteveEX
     
  21. Guest

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    Well there we are.. it only took ten minutes and i stand corrected.

    Faintly Amused

    SteveEX
     
  22. Guest

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    A most informative piece and in all honesty it would seem that technically it is a quite an advancement on existing 2 channel systems. I must say that i really quite like the idea of advanaced B M Systems and the like, although the width/depth enhancements faintly wiff of echo army dsp's.

    Regards

    SteveEX
     
  23. RecoilUK

    RecoilUK
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    Ok now i,m getting confused, I thought I had it down with the ex/es but then someone throws in NEO6??? is this yet another format or just a DSP option??
     
  24. Guest

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    DSP (as are ProLogic II & Logic 7)
     
  25. Stuart M. Robinson

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    Folks,

    Systems such as Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Pro Logic II, DTS Neo:6, Circle Surround, Meridian Trifield and Lexicon Logic 7 all have one thing in common, they’re matrix technologies whose goal is to produce a surround soundfield from two-channel material. Pro Logic was/is designed to take advantage of specifically encoded software (Dolby Surround material) where as systems like Pro Logic II, Logic 7 and Neo:6 use the same queues as a basis of more sophisticated processing.

    There is only specifically encoded software for three of the above, Pro Logic, Logic 7 and Circle Surround. As yet we haven’t seen any Pro Logic II encoded material, but sooner or later it’ll happen (regardless of the strange steering scheme involved).

    It’s really confusing to describe any of the above as 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 since none are discrete systems. This confusion has come about because of the generic term “5.1” to describe Dolby Digital or DTS material and has been wrongly transposed as an indication of the number of loudspeakers used. Pro Logic is a good example of this, it’s a four channel matrix scheme (4:2 on encode 2:4 on decode) but uses five loudspeakers and maybe even a sub, but it’s not “5.1”. So neither can we describe Pro Logic II as “5.1” or Logic 7 as “7.1”, they’re actually 2:5 and 2:7 systems respectively.

    None of the inventors of the above systems claim true, discrete 5.1 performance, that’s simply impossible from even the most advanced matrix system, but they do offer many advantages over a 2:4 system as one would expect. It’s been a good while since the introduction of Pro Logic, but matrix technology hasn’t stood still, the likes of Jim Fosgate and Dr. David Greisinger have been advancing the art and it’s their systems that now lead the field (Pro Logic II and Logic 7).

    Further reading:

    ‘Dolby Digital Surround EX® & THX Surround EX®, "6.1" or...?’ http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/myths/surroundex.html

    ‘A Question of Logic’ http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/techarticles/200101DolbyPrologicII/200101DolbyPrologicII.shtml

    …and for those with an appetite for something a little more technical:

    ‘Progress in 5-2-5 Matrix Systems’ http://world.std.com/~griesngr/AES8A.html

    ‘Multichannel Matrix Surround Decoders For Two-Eared Listeners’ http://world.std.com/~griesngr/SUR.html


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  26. MarkB

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    I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate or dismiss DPLII, while it is only an analogue system there may be unforeseen benefits.
    Because it is a 5 channel system, TV programs in future will be mixed in 5.0 (or 5.1) so that they can be decoded at the viewing location using DPLII, BUT when these programs are released on DVD, they will already have a 5.1 mix and therefore can be released with DD 5.1 soundtrack.
    I don't personally own TV programs on DVD (although I've been thinking about the X-Files season 1) but I know people who do.
    Mark

    [ 23-04-2001: Message edited by: MarkB ]
     
  27. MarkB

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    Sometimes it is easier to see the whole picture if all the data is brought together (or that's the theory anyway).
    Dolby and dts formats listed only (except for Mono and Stereo of course), I'm sure that there are others too.

    Mono
    Channels: 1

    Stereo
    Channels: 2
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R

    Dolby Surround
    Storage type: Analogue
    Channels: 3
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, [Rear]

    Dolby Pro-Logic
    Storage type: Analogue
    Channels: 4
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, [Centre], [Rear]

    Dolby Pro-Logic 2
    Storage type: Analogue
    Channels: 5
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, [Centre], [Rear L], [Rear R]

    dts NEO:6
    Storage type: Analogue
    Channels: 6
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, [Centre], [Rear L], [Rear R], [Rear Centre]

    Dolby Digital
    Storage type: Digital
    Channels: 6
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R, Subwoofer

    dts Surround
    Storage type: Digital
    Channels: 6
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R, Subwoofer

    dts Surround ES Matrix
    Storage type: Digital
    Channels: 7
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R, [Rear Centre], Subwoofer

    Dolby Digital EX (THX Surround EX)
    Storage type: Digital
    Channels: 7
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R, [Rear Centre], Subwoofer

    dts Surround ES Discreet
    Storage type: Digital
    Channels: 7
    Decoded output: Front L, Front R, Centre, Rear L, Rear R, Rear Centre, Subwoofer

    Starting at the top at the least quantity of channels and working down the most channels, non-matrixed channels taking priority over matrix channels.
    Matrixed channels are in brackets.
    Dolby Analogue formats are not required if you have an equivalent higher specification analogue system, i.e. if you have DPLII you do not need DPL.
    All the digital formats can downmix to the highest available channels a system has, i.e. if you have a 5.1 channel system, dts Surround ES Discreet can be downmixed from 6.1 to 5.1, the Rear Centre being downmixed into the Rear L and Rear R channels.

    Both dts NEO:6 and Dolby Pro-Logic 2 have both Cinema and Music modes.

    Although I have placed dts NEO:6 lower down the scale than Dolby Pro-Logic 2 (because of the extra rear channel), I'm sure that the technology and algorithms used in Dolby Pro-Logic 2 are far superior.

    Mark

    [ 23-04-2001: Message edited by: MarkB ]
     
  28. MarkB

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    Nic Rhodes
    Agreed with your comments on the AVC-A1SE flagship. As posted else where in this forum, I e-mailed Denon before I bought the unit and they assured me that the unit was upgradeable to new surround formats, however, now I've bought it they don't seem to want to respond to my queries on the subject, which is bloody inconsiderate of you ask me.
    I (we) live in hope! :confused:
    Mark
     
  29. Matty N

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    Not gonna happen Mark - I sent emails months ago and never received a response, although like yours they were received (or recieved>?).

    [ off topic --- You didn't mention before whether you had updated the software version of your remote or not ]

    Is it me or did I just hear two disturbing things on the news:

    i) napalming the dead cattle to increase burn rates

    ii) first human case of foot and mouth (this could get fun :( )


    Matt
     
  30. MarkB

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    Matt
    We have one saving grace, one that I'm banking on, and that is I'm hoping that Denon would not want to sell a Flagship amplifier without the new analogue surround format. Come Autumn, the AVC-A1SE would not be a competitive unit if it lacked the DPLII. I hope then that they are upgrading the operating system and DSP's to cope with the new format to sell out of the box (AVC-A2SE? ;)). If this is the case then the upgrade path for us should be available too. That's what I'm hoping anyway… weather or not that is what happens remains to be seen.

    Yes MCD –"Impossible to catch" (*1), "Safe to Humans" (*2), "Not life threatening" (*3)

    (1) Until someone catches it
    (2) Someone gets ill from it
    (3) Tell that to 1,000,000 farm animals

    Mark.
     

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