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Building Regs Part P - Jan 2005 - no more DIY electrics

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Building DIY' started by davehk, Dec 3, 2004.

  1. davehk

    davehk
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    So, how is everyone taking the fact that from Jan 2005 you will no longer be allowed to do anything other than minor electrical work yourself. No more installing of new circuits, consumer units, sockets in your garden shed, pond pumps etc.

    The only things you can do are replace existing switches/sockets, and add new light fittings and sockets to existing circuits provided that they are not in a bathroom or kitchen. And then you must comply with the wiring regs (which you should anyway, of course). One interesting thing - new sockets have to be between 420mm and 1200mm of the floor! (Bulding regs requirement, not wiring regs). So connecting a ceiling mounted projector neatly could be fun.

    For anything else, you will either have to employ a registered contractor, or notify the local building control deparment in advance and pay them to come out and test/inspect/certify your work. Except when I spole to my local council they said that they did not have the training to do this, so the only option is to use a registerer contractor. And - there is no way for a DIY person to get registered, the rules prevent it, even if you do the relevant training.
     
  2. MikeRJ

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    Like every other bit of nanny state nonsense, ignore it. Just how are they going to police this? Quite simply, the only time this could be a problem is if you are selling your house and you have made major changes which obviously weren't there before Jan 2005. Buy in a stock of switches and sockets that have older date codes on them!

    I guess in a couple more years time we won't be allowed to take a spanner to our own cars :rolleyes:
     
  3. Flimber

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    It's not a matter of policing people doing their own work but should you have nasty fire as a result of anything done DIY after this law is enabled you will be fully screwable by Regina in the courts.

    Mike.
     
  4. davehk

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    also, when you come to sell your house, you will have to provide the certificate. If you can't you may have problems. (ssame as with replacement windows, BTW).

    Furthermore, your buildings and contents insurance will be invalid if a claim arises as a result of work you've done yourself that has not been certified.
     
  5. ancientgeek

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    Even without the new rules you are liable / your insurance doesn't cover it if fire etc is the result of faulty DIY installation. So it is just nanny state nonsense that we now need a piece of paper. On the other hand you can now get out of DIY jobs by saying "sorry darling I'd love to do it for you but it's illegal".

    Unfortunately being certified does not guarantee brain power or common sense. I rented a standard new house built by a major housebuilder, with a gas fire on the living room wall, installed by a certified, qualified gas fitter and no doubt inspected by his supervisor. With no-one in the room, but with the fire lit, it fell off the wall, face down on the carpet, and remained lit. it had been fixed to plasterboard with two 40mm woodscrews in plasplugs. Thank goodness I didn't own the house, and thank goodness I came in the room when it was still just the carpet on fire and I could turn off the gas!

    I think that as usual all the work can still be done by unqualified persons so long as they are "supervised" by a "competent person". So politics replaces competence and responsibility in yet another area of our lives. Get down the pub and buy an electrician a pint.

    Lets just hope that in the endgame of this process there is still room for our species.
     
  6. woody67

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    You can still do some DIY

    Table 1
    Work that need not be notified to Building Control Bodies

    Work consisting of;

    Replacing accessories such as socket-outlets, control switches and ceiling roses.
    Replacing the cable for a single circuit only, where damaged, for example, by fire, rodent or impact.
    Re-fix or replacing the enclosures of existing installation components.
    Providing mechanical protection to existing fixed installations.

    Work that is not in a kitchen or special location and does not involve special installation and consists of;

    Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit.
    Adding socket-outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit.
    Installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding.

    Notes

    On condition that the replacement cable has the same current carrying capacity, follows the same route and does not serve more than on sub-circuit through a distribution board.
    If the circuit’s protective measures are unaffected.
    If the circuit’s protective measures and current-carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected by increased thermal insulation.
    Special locations and installations are listed in Table 2.
    Only the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.
    Such work shall comply with other applicable legislation, such as the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations.

    ***
    Also, some places are still selling cable colour coded to the 'old' coding. So if you get this, then any 'new' wiring you do will appear to be pre-2005.

    I can't see it being a problem when you sell your house. Building Control will only normally be able to prosecute if
    (i) the breach is found within one year of being done
    (ii) it is of such a serious breach of the Building Act that it is worth prosecuting

    Preliminary information that I have, is that on any building survey, we will continue to recommmend a test of the whole electrical installation, and if this is fine then the potential buyer would have no worries
     
  7. inzaman

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    Would agree, i had my gas meter moved by Transco contractors (i assume they are corgi registered, trained, retrained etc), upon having the cellar tanked etc the builders could smell gas.

    The gas pipes that had been extended were actually leaking :rolleyes:
     
  8. MikeRJ

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    You'd only need a certificate if it can be shown that the installation was made after Jan 1st though...
     
  9. Fulltopuk

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    Bear in mind that if you can prove the work has been started you have until March to complete to be exempt from the regs.
     
  10. Hallsy

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    This new legislation is just ridiculous. Fair enough, under old regs you didn't have to have any electrcial qualifications to do domestic electrics, just had to work to 16th edition and you would really need liability insurance, but other than that there were a lot of cowboys. Problem is this won't stop the cowboys as people will be more inclined to "get someone to do it cheap", as no doubt official contractors will charge what they like, much like a "corgi" gas man charging 65 quid to connect a bayonet fitting on a cooker!! As has been mentioned it shouldn't be too hard to cover your tracks, using old cable and old fitting that are pre 2005. Even new colours on cable wouldn't prove that it was installed after 2005 as the new colours have been out since this year as part of a transition period. The only way they can police it is by date marking cables and fittings, even then there'd have to be good reason for them to think you had made any major modifications to a circuit such as an extension that would have been built after jan 2005 and so would have been wired and would need certification.
    It really annoys me as I myself am an electrician, although I don't do dometic instal, I do mainly machine tool breakdowns/mods with some industrial install. I have done a 16th edition regs course and passed the exam but I will no longer be able to do domestic install, even though I should be quite capable.
    Incidentally does anybody know what qualifications you will now need to do dometic install, or is it going to be a money spinner like corgi where you have to pay to be part of a recognised organisation?
     
  11. woody67

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    CORGI has worked to an extent, as the majority of gas fitters/plumbers will not undertake controlled work if they do not have appropriate CORGI/ACOPs membership

    I have noticed that many of our electrical contractors are now refusing to do domestic 'foreigners' as they are not personally registered.

    There will always be a few who will do the work regardless.

    I really can't see Part P being a big issue for domestic alterations, and will only attract attention if part of bigger home extension/alteration work for which Building Control would be involved anyway.

    The cost of prosecution for any [safe] work outside of the Regulations would be out of proportion, and perhaps would be unjustifiable.
    However, courts are likely to severely punish those whos work is both unsafe, and illegal under the Regulations.

    How many homeowners still fit double glazed windows themselves without notifying building control? This is just as illegal as fitting a new ring main
     
  12. MartinImber

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    So what are the new colours?
     
  13. 406lx

    406lx
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  14. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Single phase stuff is just like flex colouring, but three phase is going to be confusing and you can guarentee there are going to be some accidents with the new colours in existing installations. Black used to be neutral, but now it's a phase. Blue used to be a phase, but now it's neutral.

    With DC stuff, the colours have stayed the same but the polarity is reversed. Scary stuff.

    Gary.
     
  15. MartinImber

    MartinImber
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    For single phase seems ok to me - all I'm going to use is a single phase to the shed
     
  16. loz

    loz
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    Great time to introduce such regulations when the availability of qualified electricians must be at an all time low.

    Is this a licence for them to make money I wonder?
     
  17. TooManyHobbies

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    Apparently not, a lot of companies only keep a minimum staff of electricians and use agency workers at busy times.

    What like Gas plumbers.

    Just at college myself retraining to be an electrical and I work as an Improver which is somewhere between a mate and an electrician. Most of the work I do is industrial or commercial. Most of the electricians I work with specialise in industrial or commercial this means unless they do the Part P they cannot work on there own house and they aren't happy with that.

    They one thing I will say is that it will help stop kitchen fitters and gas plumbers doing dodgy electrical work :smashin:

    On a final note this is not the only shake in the electrical field either. The government has withdrawn its support in training for the old C&G qualification as from the end of this educational year. It has been replaced with a new qualification C&G 2330. The first courses started in September 2004 and the new course has far more practical as employers where taking on freshly qualified electrician that had no idea what the doing.
     
  18. Hallsy

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    TooManyHobbles, what is actually going to be needed to be able to work on your own/others' houses?
    I am an industrial sparky, although mainly do m/c breakdowns and this is a great blow to me & others who are qualified sparkys but can no longer work on there own house, well major work anyway, such as extension wiring, re-wire, new CCU, etc.
    Our company recently put us through the 16th edidtion regs course, which we then took an exam for. That certificate I obtained seems worthless now as I cannot apply it to anything, other than changing socket or ceiling rose!!!
    Would just be interesting to know what courses are needed and maybe lean on my company to put our sparks through them.
     
  19. ancientgeek

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    According to the office of the deputy prime minister's web site, the reason for the new regs is "the increasing number of domestic fires caused by faulty electrical installations". I'd be interested to know how many of these were caused by incorrect electrical installations. I suspect it is very few, and electrical fires are mostly old appliances developing faults, rodent damage, water leaks, fuses replaced with wire etc.
     
  20. TooManyHobbies

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    From what we have been told at college is the Part P is an extension to 16th edition.
    I have not had this confirmed yet but as I understand it will be a yearly subscription for the certificate.
    This whole thing seems to have been dropped on the electrical trade and no one seems to have the full answers.
    http://www.edmundson-electrical.co.uk/edmundson_2.html
    This site has some info but you need register to get it.
     
  21. davehk

    davehk
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    Have a look here:

    http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/partpindex.html

    and specifically here for registration requirements:

    http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/partprequire.html


    It's not the course that's the problem - it appears that individuals simply CANNOT register to self-certify, it has to be a company (or sole trader, of course) that is engaged in the business - and you have to be able to present two sample installations that you have done over th past 12 months for them to inspect to get the approval

    So the way I read it, the individual DIYer, no matter how qualified, simply cannot get the approval. The only option for DIY is to pay your local council to come out and do the test/inspection/certification - except my local council has said they cannot and will not do it, so that option is not available. I suspect other coucils may do the same.
     
  22. Boots

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    Hi, They are questioning the legality of the fox hunting bill, I wonder if anybody will challange this part P.

    Its all badly managed if you ask me, hardly none of my customers had heard of it and my local diy super store has a little notice saying there has been changes to the instalation of electrics, check them out. Who's going to do that, nobody, it will be a case of it doesnt effect me as usual.

    Why they couldnt do a quick easy on site inspection of various jobs to see you know what your doing and a few bob to cover his time I'll never know. Now as conscientious as I am Im pushed out of the system, at my age I dont want classrooms and to learn a lot of stuff Im never going to need,

    Its obvious what it is when you have a guy who has all the qualifications and is doing comercial stuff and has to go to colledge to prove he can do domestic, that says it all.
    Boots
     
  23. ancientgeek

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    The politicians, having lost their relevance, have made wiring a political act. Apparently this will make Britain a safer place.

    DIYers, stop trying so hard; the state will care for you!

    Now that electricians require extra qualifications, the cost of electrical work will of course go down, because it will be done more efficiently. This will help the government to build all these extra low cost starter homes just as soon as they are re-elected. They will cost less to build because of the cheaper and more efficient bricklayers, electricians, carpenters and plumbers guaranteed by new red tape.

    Those who suggest the cost of building will go up, and cheap starter homes will never happen, are disgraceful cynics. Like me.
     
  24. Hallsy

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    The thing with it is, for most DIYers you can still do all the things you wanted to do, working along with regs obviously. You CAN add to a ring main, you CAN add to a lighting circuit, you CAN modify any existing circuit as long as it is not situated in a Bathroom or Kitchen, the current carrying capacity of the cable is not exceeded (you'd need to install new cables if this was the case, and hence would be a new circuit).
    The main problem is the kitchen/bathroom legislation, as if you wanted to change from say one light fitting to multiple spotlights, you are not permitted to do so. Not 100% if you're actually allowed to even change/replace a light fitting/socket/switch in a kitchen/bathroom actually (anyone?).
    The other big prob will be no extra circuits out of disboard, so no garage/shed elctrics.
    BUT you can still run them off a bit of flex on a plugtop, plugged into a socket inside your house!!! Surely the new regs are in place to prevent cowboy actions like these!!??
    Oh well.
     
  25. Boots

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    Hi,
    Well Im off first thing tomorrow to get shares in the company that make trailing sockets.

    Boots
     
  26. woody67

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    Its not a political act. It has been a long time coming, and is something that industry and other stakeholders have wanted for a long time too.

    It is odd that such a potentially dangerous activity has gone unregulated for so many years. I have seen many DIY botches when surveying properties, and have seen clueless 'electricians' on site installing poorly.

    Yes. it is easy to berate the new regulations,the potential effects and ways to dodge comformity, but there is no denying the intention of the regs. It is better to try to make things safer, then to do nothing.
     
  27. Gary Lightfoot

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    I've seen dangerous bodges to cars over the years not only by the owners but by garages too (including failure to spot obvious faults during MOT inspections), so I wonder if we'll see any regulation in that industry too. We have to pay for those privelages as well. I wonder if repairs to steering, suspension and braking systems will be restricted one day.

    Gary.
     
  28. ancientgeek

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    woody67

    Sorry about my accidental rant on a quiet day. I am not against legislation to improve electrical safety provided the collateral damage isn't greater than the benefit. And I don't much mind this legislation. But let me clarify:

    If I make certain installations myself, I am now defying the government by breaking the law. If I believe I am in the right, that is a political act, just like refusing to pay taxes.

    What I don't like is the way the legislation works by preventing many safe installations for every unsafe one it prevents, and the exemption from inspection it affords so called "competent persons", at the same time as guaranteeing them all the work.

    Instead of a safety methodology designed between politicians and trade associations, how about one designed by scientists or engineers?
     
  29. Hallsy

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    Also, why is it that every new safety and regulation body such as "corgi" and now the "part P" has a yearly subscription charge?
    What are you actually paying for? Just the governement making money surely? They want you to invest money in copious amounts of training/quallies to do a job you are already capable of, then they charge you for the privilege to be part of a body just so you can legally work for a living.
    Just a hidden tax surely?
     
  30. garbon

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    Try working for the NHS! State Registration means majority loose out miority make a packet! Sorry a bit heavy.
     

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