BT up the Ante by going 4k, does Sky have an answer ?

Discussion in 'Sky Digital TV Forum' started by John, Jun 9, 2015.

  1. John

    John
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    Well they have announced their intentions for the Champions League to be in 4k. Up until this point , in recent years sky had been the leader in such developments. Do they have an imminent answer to this ? other than putting everyones bill up to pay for the new non 4k Premiership rights :D
     
  2. Steve Stifler

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    Not sure what Sky have to offer. I've posted about the new BT Sport and their Ultra HD sport channel on the ISP forum as I believe the service will be via broadband.

    It's a disruptive move when combined with their ECL monopoly. If you have BT TV then lucky you. If you get BT Sport via Sky it's another's £5 per month. No prices yet on the premium 4K channel. It's a bold move beating the likes of Sky and the euro broadcasters. At least there will be actual content. Not sure how fast BBC 4K will be around as a friend of mine who worked on Freeview is still working on the 4K encoding and compression software. Watch out for potential test broadcasts at events like Wimbledon.
     
  3. davemurgatroyd2

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    This is a broadband streaming channel via BT Infinity only hardly a first (except as a live channel?) as I believe Netflix amongst others are already offering 4k streams. BBC and Sky are highly unlikely to start broadcasting anything except tests until the standards of ohase 2 UHD are agreed which is at least two years away. No satellite or terrestrial broadcaster is going to make serious investments until those standards are agreed.
     
  4. whitesnake11

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    BT sport have made a considerable investment haven't they?
     
  5. Steve Stifler

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    At the time of their high priced bid, I think there were a few raised eyebrows. I much prefer the Sky pundits and their whole approach to presentation, its so much more professional than BTs effort. Especially so with premiership rugby, I really miss the old crew Sky had. Don't get me started on Craig whatever his name is, oh goodie BT have landed pundit of the century, super Stevie Gerrard, cannot wait....not!
     
  6. John

    John
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    Sky have had 20years to polish their game, BT will get there eventually. Lets see what happens when GNevs contract is up for renewal
     
  7. VisionMan

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    The new UHD box is a BT YouView G5 with a 1TB HDD. Pricing has yet to be announced.
     
  8. Member 581642

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    1TB doesnt seem very big for UHD recording.

    Any news on the actual 4K UHD Spec for the box ?
     
  9. Greg Hook

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    Sky's answer will be to come out with a 4K channel, that due to shocking bit rates, will be the same as 1080P at best. Much like some of their 1080i HD channels now look like SD.
     
  10. Member 581642

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    Our concern as a company who specialise in Home distribution systems is will it be compatible with all the HD Matrixes and extenders that are installed in homes.

    As HDMI can only carry one resolution stream at a time suddenly all the 1080p TVs that could view the Youview box via matrixes, Extenders, splittres etc in multiple rooms will no longer be able to watch the channel.

    Interesting times ahead
     
  11. grahamlthompson

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  12. VisionMan

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    That would be doubtful, though I will tell you what little information has leaked onto the internet.

    As you know HD is broadcast in/at HD25fps (50i). YouViews UHD will be 50fps (50p) where 8 times more picture data is being transmitted. But theres another consideration for your company that you may not have considered, in that the amount of UHD kit in use atm is only very, very small, and of those, even fewer will have/get YouView in UHD.
     
  13. Member 581642

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    A bit of a rhetorical question on my part :)
     
  14. grahamlthompson

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    That's not correct. Progressive content compresses much more efficiently than interlaced. Some reckon 1080p50 could be transmitted with the same bandwidth as 1080i even using the H264/AVC compression codec. H265 changes the whole ball game bitrate wise.
     
  15. VisionMan

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    Which bit Graham? Or was it all of it? Does Sky use 1080p50? If not, what does it use?
     
  16. grahamlthompson

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    Sky like all other satellite broadcasts from 28.2E use 1920 x 1080 interlaced 50 fields/second, 25 frames/second upper field first. Sky boxes in common with most satellite boxes do not support level 4.2 (only 4.0) required for 1080p50. The only progressive content you can get is 1080p25 from a Freeview box (Freeview boxes were designed to support 1080p25), and the transmissions can use mixed Group Of Pictures and switch dynamically between them in the same programme.(1080i50/1080p25). Iplayer HD uses 720p25 (1280 x 720). Other IP delivered content is 1080p, most likely 1080p30 (actually 29.97fps).

    UHD at 50 fps will transmit 4 times the amount of data, but the bitrate will not be 4 times higher than HD satellite broadcasting using 1080i. The average bitrate for BBC-HD is around 6-7Mbps. That's about the same as the very best SD channels of a few years ago. Improvements in H264/AVC encoders and stat muxing (sharing the available bandwidth, allocating the channel with the most challenging content - using a variable bitrate).

    Look at the horror channel it's 544 x 576 and uses a bitrate near twice what the BBC uses for HD. It's a crap picture, they must have crap mpeg encoders.

    If 1080p50 were possible on satellite the bitrate could be even lower without affecting quality as progressive is easier to compress than interlaced.

    So 4K transmitted at 50fps, has two advantages.

    It's progressive so compresses more efficiently

    It uses H265/AVC which is reckoned to be a least twice as efficient as H264. In the end the bitrate isn't going to be that high. Look at the download speed required for Netflix 4K streaming.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
  17. VisionMan

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    25Mbps H265 for on demand only. Thanks for that. Is Skys 1080i50 output encoded in H264 or 265? Sorry for the basic questions, I'm an IPTV bod myself.
     
  18. grahamlthompson

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    H264. H265 is a brand new codec developed largely for UHD. Only the very latest kit will have H265 decoders. This includes some Android TV boxes. Clearly it's a great codec for IP streaming.
     
  19. VisionMan

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    Indeed, on demand only at 1080p 25Mbps using H265 at 50MHz. However the YouView will be belting out live UHD sport. Which even over fibre is a far different proposition.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
  20. grahamlthompson

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    I don't understand your post - where did 50Mhz come from ? 50Mhz is a amateur radio band carrier frequency it has nothing to do with data speeds- confused. Certainly fibre is capable of high speed data transmission. Indeed Virgin use mpeg2 for HD which requires a higher bitrate than H264 but they aren't short of bandwidth compared to satellite and terrestrial services. In the end BT cannot use a higher bitrate than the lowest sustained speed there infinity network can maintain. Could well be around the same figure. The key is how much data you can compress into a given bitrate without throwing away data that significantly degrades the end quality. mpeg2, H264 and H265 are lossy codecs. They throw away data and attempt to rebuild the original data by intelligent interpretation. The newer codecs are simply better at guessing what was discarded in the encoding process. It's very easy to calculate the bitrate required to transmit a specific amount of data without compression.

    Take 1920 x 1080 at 50 fps, 24 bit colour RGB per pixel (8 bits for Red Green and Blue equating to about 64 million colour variations). That's 1920 x 1080 x 24 for each frame multiply by 50 for 1 second.

    2488320000 bits/second = 2488 Mbps. A little beyond the internet capability.

    Factors affecting the speed you'll get with BT Infinity | Help | BT.com Help

    You can work out the requirement for 4K which ideally should use more than 24 bit colour.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
  21. VisionMan

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    Sorry Graham I meant PAL 50hz framerate.
     
  22. crockett

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    Those bit rates could potentially come down even further if Sky were to go with V-Nova's Perseus technology (see HERE) From the looks of it Sky Italia have been heavily involved with it and now the Sky UK/Germany and Italy are combining resources... (see HERE)
     
  23. grahamlthompson

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    Any idea if that means new boxes were it to be implemented for HD services ?
     
  24. crockett

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    They do say its backward compatible with legacy devices, but I heard it does have a parallel architecture suited to multi-core processors, so I would assume you would be talking about new hardware to get the best out of it. See HERE "HD video can be live-encoded below 500 kbit/s without loss of picture or viewing continuity" :eek:
     
  25. VisionMan

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    If Sky do introduce UHD, they would have to do it via a new box.
     
  26. davemurgatroyd2

    davemurgatroyd2
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    The first Sky UHD box is almost certainly a broadband connected device. A poster on another forum states he has seen one demonstrated with only an HDMI and power connector and a similar size to the current NowTV box.
     
  27. VisionMan

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    Probably an on demand box only for now...
     

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