British Steel

Toko Black

In Memoriam
What rules have changed in the intervening 3 years?
I dunno, do you ?

... and again, the UK government is currently giving state aid to the steel industry in underwriting the wage bill.

How is that remotely possible if the EU prohibits state aid to the steel industry ?
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
I dunno, do you ?
I'm not the one claiming that anything has changed - up to 3 years ago state aid to British Steel would have been illegal under EU Law. If you think that is no longer the case then what are you basing this claim on?
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
I'm not the one claiming that anything has changed - up to 3 years ago state aid to British Steel would have been illegal under EU Law. If you think that is no longer the case then what are you basing this claim on?

"... and again, the UK government is currently giving state aid to the steel industry in underwriting the wage bill.

How is that remotely possible if the EU prohibits state aid to the steel industry ?"

^
based on actual reality.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Because that is part of the short term liquidation process while the business is wound up or sold
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Here is the legal advice from the Accounting Officer to the Government.

It would be unlawful to provide a guarantee or loan on the terms of any of the proposals that the company or any other party has made, or any others we have considered. You must note that such an offer cannot be made legally, and that by making it you would be in breach of the Ministerial Code. Moreover, we do not believe there is currently any level of investment Government could make (above the State Aid de minimis of €200,000) that could be deemed commercial and so legal.
http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2019-0583/British_Steel_AO_Letter.pdf
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
Here is the legal advice from the Accounting Officer to the Government.

It would be unlawful to provide a guarantee or loan on the terms of any of the proposals that the company or any other party has made, or any others we have considered. You must note that such an offer cannot be made legally, and that by making it you would be in breach of the Ministerial Code. Moreover, we do not believe there is currently any level of investment Government could make (above the State Aid de minimis of €200,000) that could be deemed commercial and so legal.
http://data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2019-0583/British_Steel_AO_Letter.pdf

... but they are still giving the company Tax payers money to pay the wage bills.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
No they are not - the are indemnifying the official receiver to enable British Steel to continue to operate in the immediate future. If the turnover doesn't cover the wage bill whilst the receiver carries out their job the Government will make up any shortfall - but its not guaranteed that will be necessary.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
It is rather ironic that having supplied links to documents from the EU, the OECD and the Governments Legal advisors all stating that state aid is not legal that some still will not believe it..

Wonder what it would take.. :(
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
It is rather ironic that having supplied links to documents from the EU, the OECD and the Governments Legal advisors all stating that state aid is not legal that some still will not believe it..

Wonder what it would take.. :(
It really doesn't matter whether you provide evidence, have actual experience, know the subject inside out. When you say that something is black they will argue that white is a form of black or whatever. It is utterly pointless.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
It really doesn't matter whether you provide evidence, have actual experience, know the subject inside out. When you say that something is black they will argue that white is a form of black or whatever. It is utterly pointless.
I totally agree.

They argue that you absolutely can not do something yet all the rules and regulations points clearly to exemptions, exceptions and examples where it is possible.

To the question: could the UK government nationalise or provide state aid to the UK steel industry ?

The answer is possibly, possibly not, we don't know until individual cases are drafted, put before the EU commissioner and tested before the courts.
It does not matter how many examples of where you can't or that have not been allowed, it only needs one example of where it is, or even a hypothetical case where it would be to completely
invalidate the argument that it isn't possible.

Hypothetical: The UK government proposes a state aid package that meets the requirements for exemptions/exceptions and/or is agreeable to the EU Commissioner.​

It is definately possible to provide some forms of State Aid under the EU laws, it is merely a situation of whether a specific case falls under the exemptions/exceptions or not.
If you haven't put forwards a specific case proposal, you can not say it is allowed or not.

Stating that you know any and every possible proposal, plan or permutation would not be allowed and arguing that the UK Government could do nothing is a pretty big claim that would essentially require something akin to omniscience.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
It is definately possible to provide some forms of State Aid under the EU laws, it is merely a situation of whether a specific case falls under the exemptions/exceptions or not.
If you haven't put forwards a specific case proposal, you can not say it is allowed or not.

The Governments own Lawyers have said that in this particular case it would not be allowed - so what are you suggesting, that the Government takes a punt and hopes that the EU hasn't read the UK Governments own legal assessment?
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
The Governments own Lawyers have said that in this particular case it would not be allowed - so what are you suggesting, that the Government takes a punt and hopes that the EU hasn't read the UK Governments own legal assessment?
No.

They have said:

"It would be unlawful to provide a guarantee or loan on the terms of any of the proposals that the company or any other party has made, or any others we have considered."
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
No.

They have said:

"It would be unlawful to provide a guarantee or loan on the terms of any of the proposals that the company or any other party has made, or any others we have considered."
So what alternative is there if you dont have a guarantee or loan?. A brown envelope stuffed with used fivers?
 

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