British Steel

springtide

Well-known Member
...Because we can't. A sovereign nation that can't even invest in our own industries due to EU rules but we are funding other countries with £10 billion. Every year. Money that could go here for exactly things like this.
If the EU rules on State Aid were inherited by the UK as our own UK laws, how would you change them?
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Do you believe in State Aid? As in, propping up businesses that would fail otherwise as are not viable?

Businesses that wouldn't fall into a category that maybe considered in the national interest.
As a general rule I am not in favor - although I see it as acceptable in specific cases. This may be one.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Do you believe in State Aid? As in, propping up businesses that would fail otherwise as are not viable?

Businesses that wouldn't fall into a category that maybe considered in the national interest.
Do you think this industry should be allowed to go under?

The EU not helping again:

'Nationalise British Steel', urges Labour

In April, British Steel borrowed £100m from the government to enable it to pay an EU carbon bill, so it could avoid a steep fine.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
Do you think this industry should be allowed to go under?

The EU not helping again:

'Nationalise British Steel', urges Labour

In April, British Steel borrowed £100m from the government to enable it to pay an EU carbon bill, so it could avoid a steep fine.
If the government wanted it to stay afloat it would be working with British Steel and the EU to see if this is a viable business.

Is anyone looking at this from within current government?
Or is this just a "blame the EU" so the government can ignore it?
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The assumption was that we had left and had inherited the "law".
Because there's a huge amount of laws and we are/were/etc leaving the EU then we've had to cut and paste EU law to UK law or there won't be either. Once we are out we can then change to what we want.
What changes should be made?
What we want. That's it. What WE want. Not what the EU thinks is best for the EU, but what's best for the UK. What gets votes, jobs, money, whatever.

At some point you lived with your parents. You did fine economically. You lived by their rules.

Then you left home. You can now do what you want. Live by your rules, do what you want.

It might be that we might decide not to save the steel industry. Or we might. We might invest elsewhere. or we might consider it an important industry we should have. Either way it would be down to us and not the EU what we did.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
Why would we need a Law to keep us compliant with the rules of an organisation that we had left? :(
Talk about question avoidance. What do you disagree with the current EU policy? It's not a difficult question.

If you don't want to answer just say so and we can move on.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
Because there's a huge amount of laws and we are/were/etc leaving the EU then we've had to cut and paste EU law to UK law or there won't be either. Once we are out we can then change to what we want.

What we want. That's it. What WE want. Not what the EU thinks is best for the EU, but what's best for the UK. What gets votes, jobs, money, whatever.

At some point you lived with your parents. You did fine economically. You lived by their rules.

Then you left home. You can now do what you want. Live by your rules, do what you want.

It might be that we might decide not to save the steel industry. Or we might. We might invest elsewhere. or we might consider it an important industry we should have. Either way it would be down to us and not the EU what we did.
The big w again!
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
If the government wanted it to stay afloat it would be working with British Steel and the EU to see if this is a viable business.
Nope. Because the EU isn't going to care. The EU cares about the EU. Once you start letting countries do as they wish then others will want the same.
Is anyone looking at this from within current government?
Or is this just a "blame the EU" so the government can ignore it?
It's "blame the EU" because it is the EU. The EU thinks it's unfair for countries to prop up failing industries and is uncompetitive. If we prop it up other EU countries businesses will complain and it will mean other EU countries can bail out their failing industries which would then lead to UK companies complaining about that.

The UK couldn't bail out Rover. If it had, then all the EU car companies would have complained.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The big w again!
? what are you on about? You asked a question, I answered it, you have avoided answering your view.

Sloping shoulders.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Talk about question avoidance. What do you disagree with the current EU policy? It's not a difficult question.

If you don't want to answer just say so and we can move on.
As I have already said, I can see the arguments for State aid in this case. Unfortunately EU rules prevent that.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
So why doesn't the current government take the argument for State Aid to the EU? There is a proper process for this.
Because it violates the EU rules. The EU looks at competition within the Single Market not what each country has the capability to do.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
So nothing specific then? :rolleyes:
I gave you a long list of reasons as to how it will go.

Who do you think I am? If I could predict the future I would be doing the lottery. I don't work in British Steel, the Home office, I'm not the CEO of a giant UK industry.

We leave the EU so the UK can do what's best for the UK not the EU. What that is will be down to us. Not the EU. :rolleyes:
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
So why doesn't the current government take the argument for State Aid to the EU? There is a proper process for this.
What is state aid? European Commission

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State aid: Commission orders Belgium to recover €211 million from several steel companies within the Duferco group

The Commission has concluded that €211 million funding granted by the Walloon authorities in Belgium to several steel companies within the Duferco group between 2006 and 2011 distorted competition in breach of EU state aid rules.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
Because it violates the EU rules. The EU looks at competition within the Single Market not what each country has the capability to do.
You are as bad as Boris, it doesn't violate EU rules. There is a proper process for getting exceptions for State Aid.
One exception example is that the company is needed for the national interest.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
What is state aid? European Commission

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State aid: Commission orders Belgium to recover €211 million from several steel companies within the Duferco group

The Commission has concluded that €211 million funding granted by the Walloon authorities in Belgium to several steel companies within the Duferco group between 2006 and 2011 distorted competition in breach of EU state aid rules.
I was talking about the UK?

Last time I checked Belgium was a different country to the UK.
Why would one countries situation be identical to another?
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
You are as bad as Boris, it doesn't violate EU rules. There is a proper process for getting exceptions for State Aid.
One exception example is that the company is needed for the national interest.
1. The EU thinks we produce to much steel in the EU.
2. It needs to be for national security not national interest.

What are the EU rules about state aid?

The EU Commission says too much steel is produced in Europe. As a result, it has been inclined to take a fairly tough line on state aid in this sector.

One possibility would be to argue that the steel industry was essential for national security, but it is far from clear the commission would accept that.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
I was talking about the UK? Last time I checked Belgium was a different country to the UK.
Last time I checked, this was about the EU and state aid, and Belgium is in the EU.
 

springtide

Well-known Member
1. the EU thinks we produce to much steel in the EU.
2. It needs to be for national security not national interest.

What are the EU rules about state aid?

The EU Commission says too much steel is produced in Europe. As a result, it has been inclined to take a fairly tough line on state aid in this sector.

One possibility would be to argue that the steel industry was essential for national security, but it is far from clear the commission would accept that.
So they are stating it's not clear whether the EU would accept that as a valid reason.

How about the UK submits an application and gets clarity?
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
You are as bad as Boris, it doesn't violate EU rules. There is a proper process for getting exceptions for State Aid.
One exception example is that the company is needed for the national interest.
No, that is not correct. The only exemption from the rules on State Aid under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union are for areas covered by the General Block Exemption Regulation.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
So they are stating it's not clear whether the EU would accept that as a valid reason.

How about the UK submits an application and gets clarity?
Because 'we' don't want to, as that would stop us blaming the EU if they agreed to it, from the prospective of those desperate to want it to be the EU's fault, those against state aid/nationalisation and don't want the bad press of being seen to let it fail and those that simply like to see things crash and burn, be it in the real world, or merely discourse on the internet.

i.e it's a pointless exercise except in helping highlight to everyone else how entrenched, disingenuous or simply willing to provoke some people/ideological positions are.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
It's rather ironic that it is those in favor of EU membership who are most in favor of ignoring their rules..


Article 87 of the EC Treaty (ex Article 92)
  1. Save as otherwise provided in this Treaty, any aid granted by a Member State or through State resources in any form whatsoever which distorts or threatens to distort competition by favouring certain undertakings or the production of certain goods shall, insofar as it affects trade between Member States, be incompatible with the common market.

EU/Competition/Article 87 of the EC Treaty (ex Article 92)
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
EU State aid rules for the steel sector

Certain types of aid are excluded • Specific exclusions of the steel sector:

No Rescue and Restructuring aid (= no support for companies in difficulty)

https://www.oecd.org/sti/ind/Item 3c_3- EU_OECD-Steel.pdf
A document slide presentation from 3 years ago that isn't from the EU does not dictate what the UK government can and can't do with regards to State Aid.

Currently the UK government IS providing state aid to the steel industry - it is paying the wage bill at present while discussions are ongoing.
 
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