Britain First. A worrying development.

BISHI

Well-known Member
These people keep popping up on my FB feed uninvited. This is certainly something to worry about but is its arrival an inevitable consequence of media hysteria, the economic situation and events in the Middle East.? I worry that things are on the verge of escalating to a point that no decent and reasonable citizen of this country really wants.

Britain First: inside the extremist group targeting mosques - Channel 4 News
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
So how are the leaders of this bunch any better than "old Hooky" who was deported to the US as a terrorist? They strut around spouting their hate and vitriol, spurring others on to acts of violence and terror against a specific section of society.

Why not just call them terrorists?
 

Cliff

Distinguished Member
These people keep popping up on my FB feed uninvited. This is certainly something to worry about but is its arrival an inevitable consequence of media hysteria, the economic situation and events in the Middle East.? I worry that things are on the verge of escalating to a point that no decent and reasonable citizen of this country really wants.

Britain First: inside the extremist group targeting mosques - Channel 4 News
Not sure what you mean about media hysteria?
The number of Jihadi fighters being recruited to join ISAL in Iraq and Syria from England and the rest of Europe is particularly worrying. If these groups succeed in creating a Levant in Iraq and Syria, then they will expand the ideology everywhere. That will not only be the middle east but back home as well. Unfortunately far right groups are bound to spring up but these are unpleasant schoolboy thugs compared to the brutality and mass murder committed by the Sunni extremists in Iraq.
America is doing little to stop them, so it is likely they will succeed in there aims.

They will want to bring their successes back to Britain and elsewhere, bullying moderate Muslims to join forces. (in Iraq, the choice is join or death)

Most British people don't support these far right groups, especially the older people who remember Naziism.

But things are not good in the world, and small incidents, like the vicious murder of a Saudi girl student inflame things beyond our borders that the British media miss.
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
But is the media making things worse .? They certainly are not reporting any positive Islamic stories are they .? All I was trying to point out is there seems to be a perfect storm brewing that will facilitate extremism from all sides and that everyone, Muslim , secular or otherwise, within our borders should be concerned.
Now I am prepared to be proven wrong, but I cannot recall any incidents of 'home grown Islamist extremism' before Blair took us to war. It is my opinion that it is that single event that started the ball of polarisation rolling.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
This is a power vacuum problem, the government and authority are not dealing (or aren't perceived as such) with the genuine issue of Muslim extremists, out of fear of calls of racist or xenophobic or simple ineptness to deal with a growing issue that is concerning people.

We see on the news, Syria, "well thats their problem" people might say, "its a civil war".
Then we see Somalia, "well it was a one of terrorist attack" people might say, "awful but these things happen every decade or so".
Then we have boko haram in Kenya, "well this isn't good, kidnapping kids, ransacking and routing towns and villagers while the government stands impotent, they need a better army in Kenya", people may say.
Then we have Isis moving into Iraq, 'conquering' towns and cities, driving a well armed army away, effectively taking control of a nation one city at a time. People no longer have anything to say. We've yet reached the point were people actually say somthing, somthing that is not an excuse.

This has moved on from the narrative of a few crazies with bombs, that have allied themselves to a backward culture like the Taliban in goat herding Afghanistan to a serious threat to a nation and a region, bringing barbaric Mongoul'esc slaughter with them, not something envisionable at the beginning of the 21st century . All along we have people in the UK sympathetic to these ideals, with some to the extent that they travel halfway around the world to get involved in it, take up arms and fight, not for democracy but the exact opposite, a fight for oppression.

We have ideological and now physical armies creating the hoard battering the doors of civilised society, yet we are apparently doing nothing to nip what of this exists in the UK in the bud. No one in the UK should be wanting to join this insanity, no one in the UK should truly be sympathetic to this barbarity, we need education, and in extreme cases expulsion/deportation.
Rather than being a valuable incubator for this unacceptable face of humanity, we need to set hard limits, punishments and extol the benefits and advantages of a democratic western nation over that which these fanatics are trying to create.
British values can't come soon enough, although they will simply be general western values with a union jack stuck on the top for the most part. We can no longer take for granted that people know, understand and cherish these values and those that don't can quite frankly find a country that shares their values rather than trying to change/impose theirs on ours.
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
I agree with much of what you say, unfortunately your last paragraph would not look too out of place on a Britain First manifesto and I would like to think you would not place yourself in that category.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
What would you propose we do when we have people with extreme ideologies in our societies,
either spreading the insidious bile via non violent means, or traveling over there (where ever it may be) or worse practising their violent intents in the UK?

Our traditional solution is prison unfortunately that is a gift to such people.
There is a huge problem in prisons where muslim extremists are converting prisoners in jihadi fighters*.
Any tools we have in our country to deal with criminal and unsavories in our country is used to further their aims, they abuse the freedom of speech, they are empowered by the legal system with the likes of the european court of law for human rights and use prisons as recruitment outposts.

People have the right to live in the UK, as long as they take their responsibilities to the UK and fellow citizens seriously. Ideology is the most difficult thing to route out, as a civilised society we don't kill people as thankfully we've moved beyond that but we have no effective ability to deal with diametrically opposed ideology, one which uses all our freedoms and our laws in an ultimate aim of removing them from us.

*It's easy to recruit extremists in prison, notorious convert claims - Telegraph
British prisons: Incubators for Islamist extremism? - Inside Time Newspaper

And its not even just the UK, this pattern is followed throught the western world
Hearing To Examine Terrorist Recruitment In Prisons : NPR
Dangerous Convictions: Extremist Recruitment in America's Prisons
 

McCol

Well-known Member
I've yet to discover what these British values are. In my 43 years I've seen people's values change, who decides what these values are?
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
The civilised thing to do is to say to people, if you do not want to live in this country as it is, with our values, then please find another that meets your requirements. A perfectly civil way of dealing with acrimonious matters.

I'm not talking skin heads, knocking down doors, dragging people from their homes because they own a koran and throwing them on a boat or a plane.
I know thats what a number in the OP would want, and my first post was trying to explain why people may feel this way, but mostly why more moderate people may be persuaded when there is a lack of alternative except for tolerance and acceptance of ideologies that go against our way of living, and maybe even more ideologically motivated killings on our streets.
 
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pragmatic

Distinguished Member
I've yet to discover what these British values are. In my 43 years I've seen people's values change, who decides what these values are?
For a starter
The values I’m talking about – a belief in freedom, tolerance of others, accepting personal and social responsibility, respecting and upholding the rule of law – are the things we should try to live by every day. To me they’re as British as the Union Flag, as football, as fish and chips. Of course, people will say that these values are vital to other people in other countries. And, of course, they’re right. But what sets Britain apart are the traditions and history that anchors them and allows them to continue to flourish and develop.

Our freedom doesn’t come from thin air. It is rooted in our parliamentary democracy and free press. Our sense of responsibility and the rule of law is attached to our courts and independent judiciary. Our belief in tolerance was won through struggle and is linked to the various churches and faith groups that have come to call Britain home.
There's more here.
British values: article by David Cameron - News stories - GOV.UK

You are correct in saying people and society changes and with it their values, so it can't be a static thing, but it is typically british to consider ourselves not to have definable values.
 

McCol

Well-known Member
I understand the point but what are these British values? They seem to change over time(which is to be expected) and to be honest do we really have that strong values in this country?

Edit - Was typing as you posted link.
 

Cliff

Distinguished Member
I agree with much of what you say, unfortunately your last paragraph would not look too out of place on a Britain First manifesto and I would like to think you would not place yourself in that category.
But you have highlighted the problem here- the slur that maybe one is pandering to the right.
If politicians pussy foot around like channel 4 news presenters, all they are doing is burying their head in the sand.
The extremist problem is very real- needs to be addressed full on and if that means someone will make the odd accusation, then they need rhino hide.
But is the media making things worse .? They certainly are not reporting any positive Islamic stories are they .?
...
Now I am prepared to be proven wrong, but I cannot recall any incidents of 'home grown Islamist extremism' before Blair took us to war. It is my opinion that it is that single event that started the ball of polarisation rolling.
What kind of positive stories would you like to be reported? Unfortunately most Muslim stories in the world in terms of importance are not positive. Generally most reported news is not good, which why News At Ten had the "And finally... "

As for polarization, well the extremists gathered momentum in various parts of the world - culminating in 9/11. We now have Alshabab in East Africa, Boko Haram in Nigeria- spreading to Cameroon, the Taliban, Isal and other groups in Chechnya, China, Philippines etc etc
Sure, Mr Blair's efforts upset and created a cause for home grown groups. But now with social media, there are many young men who see 9/11 as history and are prepared to fight the good fight abroad. When they come home that is when the problems will start.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
I understand the point but what are these British values? They seem to change over time(which is to be expected) and to be honest do we really have that strong values in this country?
I think the worrying thing is people believe we don't have strong values but we do.

Take our belief in fair play as an example, one which can be extended to things like contract law in everyday society. Nothing riles the British up more than someone who doesn't play by the rules, a flippant example of that is how annoyed we get when someone pushes in a queue (and the fact we naturally form queues).
This is something that is so ingrained in our society it is uniquely British, further from this we get another value, the so called British reserve. Do we kick up a stink, get violent? no, we simply tut at worst complain to each other, we often don't want to make a scene.

The best way to see our values, is to contrast with the rest of the world, I think it won't take long to come up with a representative list, one filled with items that make us proud, embarrassed and even feel a bit peculiar.
 

McCol

Well-known Member
Never looked at it in that way if I'm honest and can see your point. I personally believe that we do have some good strong values in our society but events over the last few years concerning MP's expenses etc etc make me wonder if we will lose some of our reserve in future generations.
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
A million people marched in London against the war in Iraq - indirectly in support of Muslims, the only marching I see Muslims doing in this country is against this countries ideals and for more Islamic ones. What I would like to see is Muslims protesting against that and making it obvious they want to be part of Britain but all I hear Is the odd community leader piping up every time there is an incident. I heard some Bradford lads being interviewed last week about going on jihad to Syria and they were the dumbest sounding tards I had heard in a while, spouting off about fighting the Americans and defending Muslim brothers and sisters - not even realising they would be fighting other Muslims.!
 

McCol

Well-known Member
Almost makes the 4 Lions film look a little ahead of it's time! Think it must be 4/5 years old now.
 

krish

Distinguished Member
Not exactly convinced by her stat of 25% (shockingly high imho ... was there a worldwide poll of all Muslims??), which she then cleverly plays down with the whole 'majority' spiel, so a rather manipulative win-win trick from a professional politician.

Unsubtle scripted rallying call from a well known anti-Arab pro-Israel conservative Christian commentator at a conservative think tank event, covered by a teabagging news site.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
A million people marched in London against the war in Iraq - indirectly in support of Muslims, the only marching I see Muslims doing in this country is against this countries ideals and for more Islamic ones. What I would like to see is Muslims protesting against that and making it obvious they want to be part of Britain but all I hear Is the odd community leader piping up every time there is an incident. I heard some Bradford lads being interviewed last week about going on jihad to Syria and they were the dumbest sounding tards I had heard in a while, spouting off about fighting the Americans and defending Muslim brothers and sisters - not even realising they would be fighting other Muslims.!
Well done - you have fallen for the vox pop trick. This means talk to lots of people in the street and use the footage that suits the day's agenda.
It's like the talking heads on news programmes - they have lists by topic and opinion then choose the one that suits the day's agenda.
 

BISHI

Well-known Member
It was the radio 4 today programme- I would give that about the most credibility of any news programme anywhere.
 

Sonic67

Banned
I understand the point but what are these British values? They seem to change over time(which is to be expected) and to be honest do we really have that strong values in this country?

Edit - Was typing as you posted link.
We believe in Equality, don't believe in FGM. I can't see that stuff changing.
 

Sonic67

Banned
The number of Jihadi fighters being recruited to join ISAL in Iraq and Syria from England and the rest of Europe is particularly worrying. If these groups succeed in creating a Levant in Iraq and Syria, then they will expand the ideology everywhere. That will not only be the middle east but back home as well. Unfortunately far right groups are bound to spring up but these are unpleasant schoolboy thugs compared to the brutality and mass murder committed by the Sunni extremists in Iraq.
Yep, perhaps we should be more worried about these.

BBC News - 'Not possible' to monitor all UK Syria fighters

Britain will face costs of Islamic extremism for 'many years', says Cressida Dick - Telegraph

In face after three tranches of redundancies in the forces only 170 joined the reserves.

More Brits signing up to fight with jihadist militants in Iraq and Syria than for UK Army Reserve | Mail Online

Whilst "several hundred" have gone to fight for militants in the Middle East, only 170 have enlisted for the British Army Reserves despite a major recruitment campaign.

Maybe Capita could learn something?

And this as the best answer yet to a question:

Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly » The Right Scoop -
 

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