Brexit in a nutshell

rampant

Well-known Member
But when you leave you don't pay any tax into the system.
So you could stay out there for 10+ years and think ah I'm not well the good ol' NHS.
Even though you haven't paid in.
I'm happy to treat anyone that needs the NHS that's the point of it.

I still pay UK tax :) and will continue doing so ...
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
Yeah, that has been proved to not add up:


Thank you so much for this post, my partner suffers with mental health issues and the support is not there, I've only been with her for a short amount of time but I know her parents have had to battle with this for a while and it has been really hard for them.

She's moved in with me, and is getting some support but it's still far from being what is needed. Suicide rates have risen, and that needs addressing by funding mental health services here in the UK



And just to bring it back to Brexit, I do not trust the tory party to fund the NHS, if we leave without a deal I dread to think what will happen:

I think that one of the key issues with stories around the NHS is that people generally don't realise the size of the costs involved. So a minister can claim to be spending an extra £10 billion over say 5 years - and many will assume that this is a significant amount of money. In practice though the NHS spends around £140bn a year so an extra $2bn a year is barely more than 1% extra.

While NHS expenditure has been keeping up with inflation - it has not been keeping up with overall demand. The main driver for increasing demand appears to be the increasing numbers of elderly - to which there is no simple solution.

Once the average person hits around 50 their annual cost to the NHS starts to rise quickly. An 85 year old on average costs the NHS about 7 times as much as someone in their late 30s. In 2016 there were more than 1.5 million people in the UK aged 85 or over. That was 4 times as many as there were 50 years earlier. By 2066 it is expected that the number will increase to 5 million.

To keep pace with increasing demand from a rapidly aging population expenditure on the NHS would have to increase significantly faster than it has done. The question then becomes where does the money to achieve that come from - especially as an aging population also means a smaller proportion of people in work and a larger pension budget too.
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
Band 5 tops out at £27,635 in 2018.
To top 40k she would have to work the equivalent of 23.5 weeks overtime per year.
No it's not a good starting salary I'm sorry it's not.
Works out at £11 an hour.
Wages are a massive problem within the NHS hence why it's so short-staffed.
I reckon nursing (I'm not a nurse and never have been)is far more strenuous than your 4pm finish construction work.
And I can hold my hand up and say my colleagues work is far more technical than your construction work.
What other experience of other industries are needed.
The NHS offers a whole range of in house courses from business to leadership to a whole host of other courses.
Forgot to reply yesterday, but I see it'll just be a waste of time anyway as I realise now from the rest of your posts that you're another living away with the unicorns and fairies.

You have no idea what experience I have with NHS services; that which I do centres around mental health and the services that have been decimated by years of Tory cuts to vital areas. Children, young adults and their families who desperately need help and can't get it.

Ever spoken to a child whose suicidal? Ever spoken to a parent whose child has tried to take their own life?

And construction more strenuous than working with people's lives? The most moronic thing I've ever read on this forum. Why do you think the sickness is 3 times lower as you say it is? Christ alive you're clueless.

Plus seeing you talk such utter tosh as the problem is staff sickness, and then being as crass in your last post as to suggest NHS staff are deluded is a disgrace. The pressures many have to handle, and the workload they have to manage. You're an absolute joke to suggest none of that is relevant.

And getting back on the topic of Brexit, you started off crying about the Supreme Court decision you still clearly don't understand, then started asking for evidence about something that hasn't actually happened yet. It's all prediction and projection, and if you'd bothered to read up on something that doesn't fit into your perfect little view of what's happening, you'd know much more about the topic you pretend to be an expert on.

Already wasted enough time debating with you as is, not wasting any fudgeing more.
I funnied your post because it’s hilarious. The idea that your ex was on £40k as a band 5, without working double hours of overtime, is pretty hard to believe.

There’s no denying that there are NHS staff that are rude etc, it’s a huge organisation. I’d go so far as to say there are probably as many rude/incompetent people in the construction industry, that’s human nature. I’d also disagree that construction is any more strenuous than nursing, they’re both hands-on roles, and my wife looks ready to drop after one of her 12 hour shifts with a 30 minute lunch break in the middle. I think it’s pretty harsh to say NHS staff are deluded, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t if you were sitting in a hospital bed being cared for.

Its just one emotional appeal after another. The problem some remainers have, is the consistent quoting from newspapers with partisan bias, from a debating academic point of view, it holds very little weight.

Its all very passive aggressive whining, (a lot of men in the NHS/IT are like this, feminine, yesterdays date mentioned this, after I asked her why she'd not met anyone at work, funnily enough she works in mental health with families). Typical I might add of the whole socialist argument, doom and gloom, people need US to save them for the baddies, its virtue signaling at its best.

Disagree that construction is more strenuous.
I look back on my experience for example Sheffield townhall, we worked on that job including travelling from 6am til 730pm 7 days a week for 12 months no overtime payments were made.

The job includes heavy lifting, working alone in cramped dangerous conditions under time pressure with financial penalties. My starting tool kit weighs 30kg. Women in the main do not work in construction and neither do certain types of men.

What a lot of people don't understand is construction pay is piece work, task, complete task objectively or no pay, there are no please or thank you's its get on with your job, don't like it fudge off. People fall out physically over space, time and money every single day on site. No breaks are common, facilities are often poor, sanitation is very basic.

I have to say due to the mental conditioning of my working life the degree time constraints and tasks are by far the easiest I've ever experienced. What it has done, is open my mind to new sources of information and a clearer under standing of how the world works.


The construction industry lifestyle is undoubtedly both challenging and stressful. Long and demanding working hours, working away from home on site for weeks at a time and the lingering unease in the industry, particularly following Carillion’s recent collapse, are just some of the factors contributing to poor mental health. In a workforce that is predominantly male, specific risks associated with male mental health also need to be considered. The “tough guy” image widespread in the construction industry is very much to blame.

Non of this has anything to do with Brexit, but I personally have a couple of forum members crying because I dare to disagree with their socialist/remainer narrative. Suck it up buttercups, life's not fair.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member

None of the three posts you quoted have any quotes from newspapers, partisan bias or, in fact, have anything to do with Brexit. Maybe your academic approach doesn't include basic reading?

Who’s crying? As far as I can see, it’s posters pointing out facts from their own experiences. What makes you the arbiter of truth and everyone else a whining buttercup? You also seem to be suggesting that those disagreeing with you are “certain types of men”, would you care to elaborate what you think those types are?

Yes, you worked in construction, and yes it’s a physical career, but that doesn’t mean you’re the only one who works hard, and in crappy conditions. I don’t know how old you are, but there will be a day when you may need more support from the NHS than you do now and those people you’re labelling as deluded and skivers will be the ones helping you. I’m not a huge believer in karma, but maybe there will be some.
 
Last edited:

richp007

Distinguished Member
I really tried to take what you said seriously, but I got as far as this before I started laughing. The bold bit in particular :laugh:

Its all very passive aggressive whining, (a lot of men in the NHS/IT are like this, feminine, yesterdays date mentioned this, after I asked her why she'd not met anyone at work

Speaks for itself and volumes about you.

Then I did stop laughing obviously when you mentioned suicide as it's not a laughing matter no matter what the industry.

And you also forget you were the one who started all the tears when the Supreme Court dared disagree with your Tory/Brexiter narrative. Something you still clearly don't understand.

So perhaps you can apply your academic approach to that, as you're clearly not worth debating with about anything.
 

gamerste

Well-known Member
Construction in Sheffield 6am-7:30pm that's not even a normal day for me.
Without being on call.
But all us NHS workers are skivers and are off sick.
The people who are off sick, sometimes it doesn't surprise me with the amount of sick people we look after and diseases that are flying around.

I fly all over the country and ride in ambulances repatriating the sickest people in the country to save their lives.
On call weekend is 48 hours, the Max I have done on any weekend is 38 out of 48.
That's not including phone calls.
If it's not a weekend on call it's on call overnight during the week.
My left leaning tendencies come from real life situations in helping the most sickest and the most vulnerable people in the country.
I work with a massive team of specialists day in day out that do some of the most complex life saving techniques in the world.
They range from band 2 workers to band 8c
Everyone of them is underpaid for the work they do.
Be thankful for the NHS because it truly is a very special institution.

It's on its arse at the moment, I know nurses who have left to work in Aldi and Tesco,less stress for just a little less money.

Tories for you decimate it,then promise all the money in the world from their magic money trees when election time comes around.
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
Forgot to reply yesterday, but I see it'll just be a waste of time anyway as I realise now from the rest of your posts that you're another living away with the unicorns and fairies.

You have no idea what experience I have with NHS services; that which I do centres around mental health and the services that have been decimated by years of Tory cuts to vital areas. Children, young adults and their families who desperately need help and can't get it.

Ever spoken to a child whose suicidal? Ever spoken to a parent whose child has tried to take their own life?

And construction more strenuous than working with people's lives? The most moronic thing I've ever read on this forum. Why do you think the sickness is 3 times lower as you say it is? Christ alive you're clueless.

Plus seeing you talk such utter tosh as the problem is staff sickness, and then being as crass in your last post as to suggest NHS staff are deluded is a disgrace. The pressures many have to handle, and the workload they have to manage. You're an absolute joke to suggest none of that is relevant.

And getting back on the topic of Brexit, you started off crying about the Supreme Court decision you still clearly don't understand, then started asking for evidence about something that hasn't actually happened yet. It's all prediction and projection, and if you'd bothered to read up on something that doesn't fit into your perfect little view of what's happening, you'd know much more about the topic you pretend to be an expert on.

Already wasted enough time debating with you as is, not wasting any fudgeing more.
None of the three posts you quoted have any quotes from newspapers, partisan bias or, in fact, have anything to do with Brexit. Maybe your academic approach doesn't include basic reading?

Who’s crying? As far as I can see, it’s posters pointing out facts from their own experiences. What makes you the arbiter of truth and everyone else a whining buttercup? You also seem to be suggesting that those disagreeing with you are “certain types of men”, would you care to elaborate what you think those types are?

Yes, you worked in construction, and yes it’s a physical career, but that doesn’t mean you’re the only one who works hard, and in crappy conditions. I don’t know how old you are, but there will be a day when you may need more support from the NHS than you do now and those people you’re labelling as deluded and skivers will be the ones helping you. I’m not a huge believer in karma, but maybe there will be some.
I really tried to take what you said seriously, but I got as far as this before I started laughing. The bold bit in particular :laugh:



Speaks for itself and volumes about you.

Then I did stop laughing obviously when you mentioned suicide as it's not a laughing matter no matter what the industry.

And you also forget you were the one who started all the tears when the Supreme Court dared disagree with your Tory/Brexiter narrative. Something you still clearly don't understand.

So perhaps you can apply your academic approach to that, as you're clearly not worth debating with about anything.
No, what you've tried to do is focus on an individual emotional aspect (Mental health )to bolster your argument in an attempt to shame me. Tory, brexiteer etc, smear. Bit like Boris really. Then there's the passive aggressive laughing, do the pair of you eye roll too. Then I've got ex left me, karma is going to inflict harm upon me. :rotfl:
Don't agree with me, you're a baddie.

All because I pointed out the court case was related to Brexit, and in this instance was an inappropriate use of the justice system.

And no I do not like a lot of NHS staff, based on meeting both ex partners colleagues, listening to both talking about staff issues, sickness , rude-ness, lack of compliance, unruliness, pedantry, bullying which is rife.

Plus the absolute mess they made of delivering my second child, both ex wife and the child nearly died, one from blood loss and the baby from suffocation. And my own personal case of misdiagnosed double lobar Pneumonia and sepsis. Which set me back 9 months. My marriage never survived the traumatic birth and its after affects on our marriage. Staff were either incompetent, rude, and then both times attempted to cover up.

Tbf I have bit a little and will pack it in now. No need to ruin the forum for everyone else.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
No, what you've tried to do is focus on an individual emotional aspect (Mental health )to bolster your argument in an attempt to shame me. Tory, brexiteer etc, smear. Bit like Boris really. Then there's the passive aggressive laughing, do the pair of you eye roll too. Then I've got ex left me, karma is going to inflict harm upon me. :rotfl:
Don't agree with me, you're a baddie.

All because I pointed out the court case was related to Brexit, and in this instance was an inappropriate use of the justice system.

And no I do not like a lot of NHS staff, based on meeting both ex partners colleagues, listening to both talking about staff issues, sickness , rude-ness, lack of compliance, unruliness, pedantry, bullying which is rife.

Plus the absolute mess they made of delivering my second child, both ex wife and the child nearly died, one from blood loss and the baby from suffocation. And my own personal case of misdiagnosed double lobar Pneumonia and sepsis. Which set me back 9 months. My marriage never survived the traumatic birth and its after affects on our marriage. Staff were either incompetent, rude, and then both times attempted to cover up.

Tbf I have bit a little and will pack it in now. No need to ruin the forum for everyone else.

Why shouldn't I focus on the aspect I know about? That's what everyone does when they talk about experience. That's what you asked for.

Genuinely sorry for your ills, but it's still no reason to round on NHS staff. You will only have ever met a tiny proportion of them. And I'll bet incompetence, bullying and lack of compliance etc is rife in the construction industry too.

Incidentally NHS workers have saved the life of my father 3 times in the last 5 years.

No-one is trying to shame you, you've done enough of that yourself with your dismissive comments about "deluded" NHS staff and the work they do, and the "feminine" workers line (that was clearly a dig, no question, and I've no idea why you felt the need to do so).

And at the thrust of it all you're still wrong about the court case. Yet you're trying to claim the high ground with some sort of academic debating level over it. You need to be on the right page first.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
No, what you've tried to do is focus on an individual emotional aspect (Mental health )to bolster your argument in an attempt to shame me. Tory, brexiteer etc, smear. Bit like Boris really. Then there's the passive aggressive laughing, do the pair of you eye roll too. Then I've got ex left me, karma is going to inflict harm upon me. :rotfl:
Don't agree with me, you're a baddie.

All because I pointed out the court case was related to Brexit, and in this instance was an inappropriate use of the justice system.

And no I do not like a lot of NHS staff, based on meeting both ex partners colleagues, listening to both talking about staff issues, sickness , rude-ness, lack of compliance, unruliness, pedantry, bullying which is rife.

Plus the absolute mess they made of delivering my second child, both ex wife and the child nearly died, one from blood loss and the baby from suffocation. And my own personal case of misdiagnosed double lobar Pneumonia and sepsis. Which set me back 9 months. My marriage never survived the traumatic birth and its after affects on our marriage. Staff were either incompetent, rude, and then both times attempted to cover up.

Tbf I have bit a little and will pack it in now. No need to ruin the forum for everyone else.

You complain that posters have "tried to shame you" by calling you a Tory/Brexiteer yet you have previously labelled them feminine/passive aggressive/whining/socialist etc etc. Maybe if you stop with the generalisations and name calling you'll get a more sensible response?

I'm sorry to read of your medical issues but, for the faults you raised, you're still here along with your child and ex-wife so the NHS did their job. Maybe if they were all pulling a sickie it would be a different story. Throwing out generalisations about something as huge as the NHS, because of your bad experience of a comparatively tiny portion of it, is like me saying that all builders/workmen are work-shy thieving cowboys, because I once had a bad experience with one builder.
 
D

Deleted member 27989

Guest
Funding since 2009-2019 has been at 1.1% The lowest period of growth in funding since the NHS began.
It was at 6.3% 1999-2009.
So cuts.
Did you read the full facts link I posted
So it’s been growing then ;) That is not a cut.

sigh some people really can’t tell the truth. And you have the cheek to suggest anyone disagreeing is not telling the truth.
There are some words for people like you.
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
Why shouldn't I focus on the aspect I know about? That's what everyone does when they talk about experience. That's what you asked for.

Genuinely sorry for your ills, but it's still no reason to round on NHS staff. You will only have ever met a tiny proportion of them. And I'll bet incompetence, bullying and lack of compliance etc is rife in the construction industry too.

Incidentally NHS workers have saved the life of my father 3 times in the last 5 years.

No-one is trying to shame you, you've done enough of that yourself with your dismissive comments about "deluded" NHS staff and the work they do, and the "feminine" workers line (that was clearly a dig, no question, and I've no idea why you felt the need to do so).

And at the thrust of it all you're still wrong about the court case. Yet you're trying to claim the high ground with some sort of academic debating level over it. You need to be on the right page first.
However, the construction industry doesn't blow its own trumpet on how professional its members are. The construction industry is well known for its blunders, non academic, cocaine snorting, heavy drinking, hyper masculine, covert criminal aspects. Its common knowledge. The brawn to get the job done comes with caveats.

You'll never change my mind about NHS staff, patient surveys, NHS staff all complain about the same problems I have highlighted. ONS stats back this up, patients associations, policy objectives also highlight staff sickness (Just one of many) as a big problem. As for trust, both partners working experiences, management, covers the north of England both private sector and public. Seminars for managers cover the whole of the UK trusts, meetings in the capital are a regular event.

The ex wife on returning to the public sector remarked on the change in staff attitude and working practices being archaic and financially irresponsible. Yesterdays date mentioned the men in the NHS not being masculine, comparatively to those in construction they're not.

I'll never agree with your left leaning sympathies, I think people should be self sufficient, make sensible choices financially, make sensible choices regarding drink, drug, sexual habits, support there own families and children. Social community care, projects, place a huge financial burden on those willing and able to earn enough money to support this ideology. Constantly asking for more money just enables social ills, the teach a man to fish analogy works perfectly here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pacifico

Banned
And just to bring it back to Brexit, I do not trust the tory party to fund the NHS, if we leave without a deal I dread to think what will happen:

Surely all that will happen is the same as happened for decades before we joined the EU - you vote at a General Election for whatever Party you want to see in power based on their promises. After brexit there will be absolutely nothing preventing the electorate sending that nice Mr Corbyn into No10 with a landslide majority and a mandate to double spending on the NHS.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
After brexit there will be absolutely nothing preventing the electorate sending that nice Mr Corbyn into No10 with a landslide majority and a mandate to double spending on the NHS.
Nothing other than not wanting to support Marxist, anti Semitic extremists who plan on seizing private property from across the economy including our pension funds. :cool:
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
There was another thread about the NHS.
Sickness absence in the labour market - Office for National Statistics

Across the board public sector workers have a higher demographic of women and women are shown to be:
The groups who experienced the highest rates of sickness absence were:
Demographics and geography
Women (2.5% versus 1.6% for men)
Figure 10 shows quite clearly that the public sector has a higher rate of sickness than the private sector.
For the October 2015 to September 2016 period, the “odds” of reporting sickness absence (when controlling for different factors that may influence sickness) for different groups were:

32.0% higher for women relative to men
27.0% higher for workers in the public sector relative to workers in the private sector
36.0% higher for workers in organisations with 500 and over employees relative to workers in organisations with less than 25 employees

So we have a large organisation employing women with incentived sick pay scheme, what could possibly go wrong.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
I'll never agree with your left leaning sympathies, I think people should be self sufficient, make sensible choices financially, make sensible choices regarding drink, drug, sexual habits, support there own families and children. Social community care, projects, place a huge financial burden on those willing and able to earn enough money to support this ideology. Constantly asking for more money just enables social ills, the teach a man to fish analogy works perfectly here.

Wow, that's sadly some next level naivety about real life right there.

Taking personal responsibility is all fine until the day comes when you might actually need some help beyond what you can manage yourself.

So what happens then? Well seeing as social care and any help that way is such a terrific burden to others, let's just leave the people that need assistance to it shall we. Let's leave the mentally ill to take care of themselves, let's leave the suicidal kids to get on with it, let's leave the disabled man/woman to fend for themselves. It's fine, god forbid we wouldn't want to burden anyone!

Ever cared for a relative with dementia 24/7? How does a family manage an autistic child? How do you cope with a suicidal relative?

You talk about supporting yourself as if it gets no worse than catching a cold. The attitudes of some are beyond belief, and it is always the right leaning Tory voters like you who have no vision of society beyond your own little bubble.

Community care quite literally save lives, I've seen it happen. Support workers and projects are lifesavers for families who need assistance with mental health. And these are disappearing fast, and adding impossible pressure to the lives of people who actually do just want to go out to work, earn a living, and support themselves and their families as best they can.

Life isn't always rosy, so god forbid you or your family or any of your friends ever need any help beyond what you can provide for them. Beyond your "self sufficiency" shall we say. What will you do then? If you were alone and suddenly suffered a debilitating illness and there was no-one to take care of you, what would you do? If you had no means to fall back on and no-one to look after you?

It's ok, just manage yourself according to you. That's not how real life works.
 
I'll never agree with your left leaning sympathies, I think people should be self sufficient, make sensible choices financially, make sensible choices regarding drink, drug, sexual habits, support there own families and children. Social community care, projects, place a huge financial burden on those willing and able to earn enough money to support this ideology. Constantly asking for more money just enables social ills, the teach a man to fish analogy works perfectly here.

Maybe we should remove the police and see how self sufficient people like you are when the desperate poor turn up at your house to simply take what they like. I'm sure you don't mind the financial burden of policing.

Using your fish analogy, stopping people hitting that desperate rock bottom is the fishing lesson. The fish is the increased policing costs to protect those who have from those who don't.

The right love small government, and big personal responsibility but they're always strong on policing and the military. Funny that.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Maybe we should remove the police and see how self sufficient people like you are when the desperate poor turn up at your house to simply take what they like. I'm sure you don't mind the financial burden of policing.

Using your fish analogy, stopping people hitting that desperate rock bottom is the fishing lesson. The fish is the increased policing costs to protect those who have from those who don't.

The right love small government, and big personal responsibility but they're always strong on policing and the military. Funny that.

The police have to spend too much of their time dealing with the mentally ill as well. Because the resources aren't there for them to utilise either.
 
D

Deleted member 51156

Guest
Maybe we should remove the police and see how self sufficient people like you are when the desperate poor turn up at your house to simply take what they like. I'm sure you don't mind the financial burden of policing.

Using your fish analogy, stopping people hitting that desperate rock bottom is the fishing lesson. The fish is the increased policing costs to protect those who have from those who don't.

The right love small government, and big personal responsibility but they're always strong on policing and the military. Funny that.
I think you've been watching too many films, this isn't a live rerun of City of God.

We did actually have a 4 gang armed robbery here last yr.
I'm not right leaning, I stand upright. :rotfl:
 

Har-One

Member
Wow, that's sadly some next level naivety about real life right there.
I am afraid that there is very little naivety there. It is just a perspective from experience and misguided assumptions. Usually it is because some of us never have experienced rough life, lack empathy or simply make us feel better when all these problems our caused by their own fault.

We all should take responsibility for ourselves and make sensible choices, I agree with that statement. The problem is that many of those people have no possibilities of making any choice. They are force by circumstances, economic downturns, etc into a situation that it is almost impossible to break out it.

It is sad when humanity and concern for others is just dismissed as left leaning positions.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
The word 'social' is not in the Tory vocabulary.

It is sad when many people without issues thinks its great for working tax payers to support their life without doing a bloody thing. Also takes away the support that should be going to the genuinely needy.
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
It is sad when many people without issues thinks its great for working tax payers to support their life without doing a bloody thing. Also takes away the support that should be going to the genuinely needy.
You forgot to mention cigarettes, booze and the Sky box.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
You forgot to mention cigarettes, booze and the Sky box.

Often true, not forgetting in other cases Tattoos, piercings & drugs use.

I have people in my own family circle that plead poverty and can't meet bills yet still mange to get hair dyed or pop off to the pub and a new tattoo each month. Its real whether you make light of it or not.

I fully appreciate there are disabled and those suffering from serious mental health conditions that do genuinely need support, and that those in certain parts of the country that do work still need help with excessive housing costs.
 
Last edited:

The latest video from AVForums

Paramount + UK launch: Halo, Star Trek and Beavis, and all the latest 4K + Movie/TV News
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

Netflix confirms ad-supported option is on the way
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Rotel announces 60th Anniversary Diamond Series Hi-Fi duo
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Paramount+ launches in the UK and Ireland
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Hisense launches A9H 4K OLED TV
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
What's new on UK streaming services for July 2022
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom