Brexit in a nutshell

gamerste

Suspended
Recruitment, erm courses and training related to the NHS are oversubscribed. In addition to this, the NHS has a major staff sickness issue. There is no shortage, just over 100,000 people off sick every day. I've gone thru this before. The information is freely available ONS.
Another soundbite hero.zzz
Maybe off sick exhausted after having to do 3 people's work load.
So there is no shortage of doctors and nurses and others short staffed because everyone is off sick
 

gamerste

Suspended
That addresses the budget increase.

The number of full-time equivalent nurses and health visitors has increased by around 5,700 since October 2010, after initially falling in 2011 and 2012. The number of midwives has increased by 2,300 over the same period.

There were 10,934 additional HCHS doctors (FTE) employed in the NHS in March 2017 compared to March 2010 (11.45 per cent). In the past year the number has increased by 2.29 per cent.


Between January-March 2014 and January-March 2018, the number of women with disabilities in employment increased by around 474,000, an increase of 30%. Over the same period, the number of men with disabilities in employment increased by around 290,000, an increase of 21%.

Lolz
IMG_20191001_180014.jpg
 

Squiffy

Distinguished Member
I'm sure you can source and give the context for all that whataboutery.

And no acknowledgement of the facts that there are more doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and that the record on creating employment for the disabled is remarkable?
 

trevor432990

Active Member
Ermm we seem to be drifting off topic a bit interesting though it may be. Has anyone been able to fathom out what deal is actually being floated to the EU by Boris at the moment? Todays news coverage seems to imply some movement may be taking place but then it all gets distracted by his associations or otherwise with women several years ago. Left me scratching my head.
 

gamerste

Suspended
Ermm we seem to be drifting off topic a bit interesting though it may be. Has anyone been able to fathom out what deal is actually being floated to the EU by Boris at the moment? Todays news coverage seems to imply some movement may be taking place but then it all gets distracted by his associations or otherwise with women several years ago. Left me scratching my head.
It's the brexit forum everything goes off topic and all threads role into one
 

gamerste

Suspended
I'm sure you can source and give the context for all that whataboutery.

And no acknowledgement of the facts that there are more doctors and nurses working in the NHS, and that the record on creating employment for the disabled is remarkable?
More nurses and doctors but still 100,000 vacancies and 85,000 nurses short.
Which will probably get larger seeing the abolishment of the NHS bursary
 

Squiffy

Distinguished Member
More nurses and doctors but still 100,000 vacancies and 85,000 nurses short.
Which will probably get larger seeing the abolishment of the NHS bursary
Nursing training courses are oversubscribed.

I note no sources given for your quotes. Let alone context.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Nursing training courses are oversubscribed.

I note no sources given for your quotes. Let alone context.
Yet there are apparently still not enough trained nurses. Maybe that’s because there aren’t enough places on the training courses made available, so people like you can argue that the courses are oversubscribed so therefore there mustn’t be a problem.
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Yet there are apparently still not enough trained nurses. Maybe that’s because there aren’t enough places on the training courses made available, so people like you can argue that the courses are oversubscribed so therefore there mustn’t be a problem.
Agreed.
It's a perfect storm combination of nursing student funding changes, lack of places, and lack of clinical placement capacity.

56. Funding and financial support for student nurses starting undergraduate courses from August 2017 is now provided through the Student Loans Company, rather than the NHS bursary scheme. Under the NHS bursary scheme the number of nurse training places was capped, and the number of applications exceeded the number of places available by two to one. Many nurses also complained that the bursaries did not meet the cost of living and that there was no access to student loans for top ups.

57. Applications to undergraduate nursing courses in England in 2017/18 dropped by 23% compared to 2016/17. However, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also experienced a drop in applications, despite retaining the bursary, but these are smaller than the falls in England - the number of applicants is down by 10% in Wales compared with 2016, with reductions of 6% seen in Norther Ireland and 2% in Scotland. Even with a 23% reduction in applications, demand for places in 2017/18 still exceeded the number of places available by two to one.

59. It is too early to draw firm conclusions about the impact of student funding reforms on the supply of nurses. While applications have dropped, the number of places available has not yet expanded as anticipated. One reason for that is that all nursing degrees involve a clinical placement, and there have been delays in expanding clinical placement capacity. The Government has committed to funding an extra 5,000 clinical placements per year from 2018–19, which will increase nurse training places by 25%.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhealth/353/353.pdf

Blaming the government’s decision to abolish bursaries for nursing students, a draft of the NHS people plan says: “Our analysis shows a 40,000 (11%) shortfall [in the number of nurses needed in England] in 2018-19 which widens to 68,500 (16%) by 2023-24 without intervention, as demand for nurses grows faster than supply.”

The plan says George Osborne’s decision in 2015 when he was chancellor of the exchequer to stop paying nursing students’ tuition fees and maintenance grants has led to a huge drop in those applying to be nurses at the same time as the NHS is facing its most debilitating shortage of them in decades.

Cuts may leave NHS short of 70,000 nurses, leaked report warns
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
hello, Clear comment, i am from europe and can not at all understand the desision the people from the UK have Made. I love to drive my Jaguar and Mini Clubman. Do you realy think that i would buy a new car Made in the UK again? Did the people in the UK not realise that a lot of European people like me would not go there anymore on Holliday and leave their money in a Euro unfriendly country?
Hmm, are you really? I'm from the Netherlands. Why would you say you are from Holland, that doesn't even exist. Secondly, you do realise that leaving the EU is not the same as leaving Europe. And thirdly you do realise that currently, the UK is a Euro 'unfriendly' country as well ;) Doesn't stop anyone now from going to the UK, so why would it when the UK leaves the EU.
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
We have a phrase here in the UK, I don't know whether it will translate well:
It's known as "Cutting off your nose to spite your face".
Hahaha, after all those years I still can't explain that one, nor have found a Dutch equivalent that comes close.
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
Which is his opinion to share. Just because we don't agree, isn't reason to suggest he leaves the forum.

Also remember, that some subtlety, nuance, and politeness may be lost in translation. How's your Dutch?
I'm fluent Dutch, it is even better than my English :) Happy to be of assistance if you have any questions.

I'm in Amsterdam as we speak.
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
I think that's more a case of if we can't get any EU products, we'll just eat British. Personally I'm happy for us to continue buying Dutch Edam and Insulin, even if they stick two fingers up at us.
Actually, forget the Edam, horrible stuff :D
Why do you think we like exporting that stuff :p

Try some Beemster, I've noticed that more and more cheese shops in the UK are stocking it in small quantities. It is a bit harder but very nice. Good replacement for when Cheddar can no longer be produced :D:devil:
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
I'm on my last pack of Stroopwafels. When they run out, I will never again order your delicious Dutch edible cup covers.

I will take my plucky innovative British spirit and improvise.

After 6 months, I bet I won't even notice the difference and Holland will be knee deep in unsold Stroopwafels.

Check mate Dutchy.

That is just too funny!!!!

Love it! Combining humour, and some cultural awareness.

Nice one...
 

Har-One

Distinguished Member
You funny.

Have a nice day. Bye

Oh, your mixing up EU political club with Europe the continent. You do realise if it wasn't for the UK (and US + allies) you'd actually be German now! and likely genetically altered to be White, Blond with blue eyes if not already.
It is amazing how we repeat an argument and really believe it to be true. The US came very late to the war. It is undeniable that us, (UK) and the US play an important part but let's not forget that over 20 millions Soviets paid with their lives and it was the Soviet Union, at the time, who took Berlin. We ran into it to avoid Berlin being totally controlled by the USSR.
 

From Holland

Standard Member
"I'll never buy anything British again" hardly needs examining for lost subtly. I've found that most Dutch people speak extremely good English. I don't speak any Dutch, if I wanted to I'd ask one of the Dutchman on here to translate for me. I'm not suggesting he leave, if his only intent is to be insulting he'll fit right in. :devil: But if he only has one message, I think we got it.
I really like the british and think you have a more than beautufull country. I have been often in Engeland, Ierland and Schotland. I only wanted to express one thing: I don’t ever buy a japanese car becourse the japanese catch whale, i would never set a foot in Turkey becourse of Erdogan‘s dictatorship i don’t anymore go to the US becourse of Trump. And while the UK leave the Euro while they think they can gain a few pounds and are so utterly ignorand to let themselfs be misinformd by lyers as Jonson, i say to mysel: hey why leave my money there. I have allways voted with my feet and more people should do that. We need each other to solve the mondial problems we are facing.
 

Har-One

Distinguished Member
Brexit in a nutshell:
The most divisive and polarizing issue of our time. It has fueled racist comments, even violance like never before.

-----

Asking other Europeans to stop using our forums is not different from Trump's remarks of asking those congress women to go back to their countries.

It is our own PM the one using inflammatory language and his remarks are defended because "he tells it like it is". He has repeated over and over about the "surrender act", there is an implication that they are the enemy. It is also inciting animosity against MPs and the judiciary.

Even if we leave the EU by the end of the month, Brexit will be dominating the domestic agenda for a good decade at least.

It is very hard to bring the country together when we are using language that encourages division. Ignoring the EU altogether, we will still need to bring together a country divided in half by this issue.
 

Squiffy

Distinguished Member
Brexit in a nutshell:
The most divisive and polarizing issue of our time. It has fueled racist comments, even violance like never before.

-----

Asking other Europeans to stop using our forums is not different from Trump's remarks of asking those congress women to go back to their countries.
Oh bless.

Maybe save your ire for the xenophobe planning to boycott all British goods.
 

Ruperts slippers

Distinguished Member
Maybe off sick exhausted after having to do 3 people's work load.
So there is no shortage of doctors and nurses and others short staffed because everyone is off sick
More nurses and doctors but still 100,000 vacancies and 85,000 nurses short.
Which will probably get larger seeing the abolishment of the NHS bursary
Yet there are apparently still not enough trained nurses. Maybe that’s because there aren’t enough places on the training courses made available, so people like you can argue that the courses are oversubscribed so therefore there mustn’t be a problem.
Agreed.
It's a perfect storm combination of nursing student funding changes, lack of places, and lack of clinical placement capacity.

56. Funding and financial support for student nurses starting undergraduate courses from August 2017 is now provided through the Student Loans Company, rather than the NHS bursary scheme. Under the NHS bursary scheme the number of nurse training places was capped, and the number of applications exceeded the number of places available by two to one. Many nurses also complained that the bursaries did not meet the cost of living and that there was no access to student loans for top ups.

57.
Applications to undergraduate nursing courses in England in 2017/18 dropped by 23% compared to 2016/17. However, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also experienced a drop in applications, despite retaining the bursary, but these are smaller than the falls in England - the number of applicants is down by 10% in Wales compared with 2016, with reductions of 6% seen in Norther Ireland and 2% in Scotland. Even with a 23% reduction in applications, demand for places in 2017/18 still exceeded the number of places available by two to one.

59. It is too early to draw firm conclusions about the impact of student funding reforms on the supply of nurses. While applications have dropped, the number of places available has not yet expanded as anticipated. One reason for that is that all
nursing degrees involve a clinical placement, and there have been delays in expanding clinical placement capacity. The Government has committed to funding an extra 5,000 clinical placements per year from 2018–19, which will increase nurse training places by 25%.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhealth/353/353.pdf

Blaming the government’s decision to abolish bursaries for nursing students, a draft of the NHS people plan says: “Our analysis shows a 40,000 (11%) shortfall [in the number of nurses needed in England] in 2018-19 which widens to 68,500 (16%) by 2023-24 without intervention, as demand for nurses grows faster than supply.”

The plan says
George Osborne’s decision in 2015 when he was chancellor of the exchequer to stop paying nursing students’ tuition fees and maintenance grants has led to a huge drop in those applying to be nurses at the same time as the NHS is facing its most debilitating shortage of them in decades.
Cuts may leave NHS short of 70,000 nurses, leaked report warns
Maybe off sick because staff are paid in full whether they're at work or not.

There isn't a shortage.
1. Staff sickness is rewarded with full pay.
2. Changes to training, degree level, has slowed down the throughput of trainees. Degree level training was not necessary. All that has happened is levels of pomposity have shot thru the roof, making cooperation between staff and departments impossible.
4. The NHS like all socialist organisations is top down hierarchy, decision making process is slow and often unrelated to what teams need.

Nurses complaining, what's new.
Ex was a director of clinical services, so I know a little bit about the NHS and private hospitals work.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Maybe off sick because staff are paid in full whether they're at work or not.

There isn't a shortage.
1. Staff sickness is rewarded with full pay.
2. Changes to training, degree level, has slowed down the throughput of trainees. Degree level training was not necessary. All that has happened is levels of pomposity have shot thru the roof, making cooperation between staff and departments impossible.
4. The NHS like all socialist organisations is top down hierarchy, decision making process is slow and often unrelated to what teams need.

Nurses complaining, what's new.
Ex was a director of clinical services, so I know a little bit about the NHS and private hospitals work.
Spoken like someone who ignores those on the front line, maybe that’s why she’s your ex?

The NHS isn’t the only employer who pays wages whilst people are ill. Have you considered that many of those people getting ill aren’t just doing it for a skive?

Why do you think degree level training isn’t required? According to previous posts, the current training courses are oversubscribed, suggesting that there are more than enough people who want to go into the vocation so it’s obviously not putting them off.
 

gamerste

Suspended
Maybe off sick because staff are paid in full whether they're at work or not.

There isn't a shortage.
1. Staff sickness is rewarded with full pay.
2. Changes to training, degree level, has slowed down the throughput of trainees. Degree level training was not necessary. All that has happened is levels of pomposity have shot thru the roof, making cooperation between staff and departments impossible.
4. The NHS like all socialist organisations is top down hierarchy, decision making process is slow and often unrelated to what teams need.

Nurses complaining, what's new.
Ex was a director of clinical services, so I know a little bit about the NHS and private hospitals work.
Nursing became a degree only course in 2009 so from 2013 onwards all qualified nurses are trained at degree level.
Clinical services, so came from the private sector then ?
And not a trained health professional?
Lots of employees also get full sick pay regardless of where they work.
To say there isn't a staff shortage in the NHS is ludicrous.
I mean who wants to study as a nurse these days with a starting salary of 23k and student debt of 30-40k
Don't see nurses complaining to much, lots of NHS users are complaining because they can see with their own eyes when they use the service that it's massively short staffed.
It's the best health care system in the world for the money and it's brilliant.
I just wish it was funded correctly.
 

SteakAndCake

Suspended
Nursing became a degree only course in 2009 so from 2013 onwards all qualified nurses are trained at degree level.
Clinical services, so came from the private sector then ?
And not a trained health professional?
Lots of employees also get full sick pay regardless of where they work.
To say there isn't a staff shortage in the NHS is ludicrous.
I mean who wants to study as a nurse these days with a starting salary of 23k and student debt of 30-40k
Don't see nurses complaining to much, lots of NHS users are complaining because they can see with their own eyes when they use the service that it's massively short staffed.
It's the best health care system in the world for the money and it's brilliant.
I just wish it was funded correctly.
NHS is one of, if not the most efficient health care systems in the world. Bang for buck is exceptional but it IS underfunded, and people are suffering for it.

There's no more slack or fat left to cut. Continued under-funding will now harm patient outcomes, simple as that.
 

gamerste

Suspended
NHS is one of, if not the most efficient health care systems in the world. Bang for buck is exceptional but it IS underfunded, and people are suffering for it.

There's no more slack or fat left to cut. Continued under-funding will now harm patient outcomes, simple as that.
I know I've worked in it for the last 22 years
 

EarthRod

Distinguished Member
Even if we leave the EU by the end of the month, Brexit will be dominating the domestic agenda for a good decade at least.

It is very hard to bring the country together when we are using language that encourages division. Ignoring the EU altogether, we will still need to bring together a country divided in half by this issue.
Bearing in mind the EU is a bureaucratic organisation and the UK is a country in Europe; like France, Germany, Italy etc are also countries in Europe.
 

Ruperts slippers

Distinguished Member
Spoken like someone who ignores those on the front line, maybe that’s why she’s your ex?

The NHS isn’t the only employer who pays wages whilst people are ill. Have you considered that many of those people getting ill aren’t just doing it for a skive?

Why do you think degree level training isn’t required? According to previous posts, the current training courses are oversubscribed, suggesting that there are more than enough people who want to go into the vocation so it’s obviously not putting them off.
Nursing became a degree only course in 2009 so from 2013 onwards all qualified nurses are trained at degree level.
Clinical services, so came from the private sector then ?
And not a trained health professional?
Lots of employees also get full sick pay regardless of where they work.
To say there isn't a staff shortage in the NHS is ludicrous.
I mean who wants to study as a nurse these days with a starting salary of 23k and student debt of 30-40k
Don't see nurses complaining to much, lots of NHS users are complaining because they can see with their own eyes when they use the service that it's massively short staffed.
It's the best health care system in the world for the money and it's brilliant.
I just wish it was funded correctly.
What has that got to do with anything at all. Go quote from a newspaper. :rotfl:

Nope, NHS to private sector, back to the NHS. Worked her way up from band 5 to mid band 8.

NHS users complain because staff are rude, attitude problems and some are downright incompetent, with no recourse to retrain or discipline. The other problem is staff have very little experience of other industries. My background is construction, comparatively much more technical and strenuous work, however sickness is 3 times lower.

As for the pay, that's a good starting salary and with on call payments, overtime, training, pension, uniform, social life, increments. Don't kid yourself, it's a good job. When I met my ex wife she was on £40000 plus for less that 5 days work as a band 5..
Nhs staff are deluded.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
NHS is one of, if not the most efficient health care systems in the world. Bang for buck is exceptional but it IS underfunded, and people are suffering for it.

There's no more slack or fat left to cut. Continued under-funding will now harm patient outcomes, simple as that.
How much more money needs to be spent considering that the NHS budget doubled in real terms from 2000 to 2016 and rose from 4.9% GDP to 7.3%
 

gamerste

Suspended
What has that got to do with anything at all. Go quote from a newspaper. :rotfl:

Nope, NHS to private sector, back to the NHS. Worked her way up from band 5 to mid band 8.

NHS users complain because staff are rude, attitude problems and some are downright incompetent, with no recourse to retrain or discipline. The other problem is staff have very little experience of other industries. My background is construction, comparatively much more technical and strenuous work, however sickness is 3 times lower.

As for the pay, that's a good starting salary and with on call payments, overtime, training, pension, uniform, social life, increments. Don't kid yourself, it's a good job. When I met my ex wife she was on £40000 plus for less that 5 days work as a band 5..
Nhs staff are deluded.
Band 5 tops out at £27,635 in 2018.
To top 40k she would have to work the equivalent of 23.5 weeks overtime per year.
No it's not a good starting salary I'm sorry it's not.
Works out at £11 an hour.
Wages are a massive problem within the NHS hence why it's so short-staffed.
I reckon nursing (I'm not a nurse and never have been)is far more strenuous than your 4pm finish construction work.
And I can hold my hand up and say my colleagues work is far more technical than your construction work.
What other experience of other industries are needed.
The NHS offers a whole range of in house courses from business to leadership to a whole host of other courses.
 
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