Brexit in a nutshell

Pacifico

Banned
I see that the Guardian are still desperately spinning for Remain, must be getting worried..

Brexit deal includes two-way customs checks, insists Ireland
Foreign minister challenges Johnson’s claim about goods moving from Northern Ireland to Britain

Sounds bad - but then you read what the Foreign minister actually said...

“The EU has made it clear they want to minimise the impact on goods coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, but at the same time goods coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will need to have some checks to ensure that the EU knows what is potentially coming into their market through Northern Ireland.”

So then the Guardian double down...

The comments contradicted Johnson’s claims, repeated last Sunday, that there would be no checks on goods moving from Northern Ireland to Great Britain.
Notice how the Guardian deliberately change the routing....

So what did the Foreign Minister actually say about goods from NI to Britain..

“Goods going the other way from Northern Ireland into Great Britain will have far less requirement for checks at all. In fact, it will probably be limited to an export declaration, because, of course, that is a matter internally for the UK.
And they wonder why people are turning away from the mainstream media... :laugh:

link
 

CommonSense

Active Member
This is meant for richp007 following his reply to Rupert slippers (sorry I don't have full effective use of this Forum yet)-

Some direct quotes from the Labour manifesto:

1. We will uphold the principle of comprehensive healthcare by providing free annual NHS dental check-ups.
2. The re-emergence of measles is an indictment. – my comment: measles has NOT re-emerged due to the Government.
3. Alcoholic drinks will be labelled with clear health warnings. -my comment: only an alien doesn’t know that alcohol in excess is damaging. Who is going to pay for this labelling? Why should society pay for people who go to great excesses drinking and get sick and belligerent on the streets. The individual who drinks is responsible for doing so.
4. We will abolish prescription charges in England.
5. We will provide free personal care.
6. Within five years, all 2, 3 and 4-year- olds will be entitled to 30 hours of free preschool education.
7. We will ‘poverty-proof’ schools, introducing free school meals for all primary school children.
8. Labour will deliver free full-fibre broadband to all by 2030.
9.We will maintain free entry to museums.
10.We will protect free TV licences for over-75s.

The member you replied to has some good points. There seems to be nothing in the Labour manifesto which Labour is not promising including the items I’ve listed above. Why should all these services be provided free? Particularly items 8, 9 and 10. It’s one thing to help people in need like The Good Samaritan. It’s quite another to promise everything whether or not it’s needed/deserved. Labour states time again that there are x number of billionaires in this country and that the rich should be paying more but they don’t seem to be encouraging people to be more responsible for themselves, rather they are doing the opposite. Labour acts as though we were all born with the right to free care from cradle to grave. I’ve news for them -it has to be paid for. Why is it that when Labour were in power that regions like the North East and South Wales didn’t have surges in success or equality with `the other half’? How is Labour going to pay for all these promises? In addition to increasing taxes, they’ll borrow like there’s no tomorrow.
 
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two2midnight

Distinguished Member
This is meant for richp007 following his reply to Rupert slippers (sorry I don't have full effective use of this Forum yet)-

Some direct quotes from the Labour manifesto:

1. We will uphold the principle of comprehensive healthcare by providing free annual NHS dental check-ups.
2. The re-emergence of measles is an indictment. – my comment: measles has NOT re-emerged due to the Government.
3. Alcoholic drinks will be labelled with clear health warnings. -my comment: only an alien doesn’t know that alcohol in excess is damaging. Who is going to pay for this labelling? Why should society pay for people who go to great excesses drinking and get sick and belligerent on the streets. The individual who drinks is responsible for doing so.
4. We will abolish prescription charges in England.
5. We will provide free personal care.
6. Within five years, all 2, 3 and 4-year- olds will be entitled to 30 hours of free preschool education.
7. We will ‘poverty-proof’ schools, introducing free school meals for all primary school children.
8. Labour will deliver free full-fibre broadband to all by 2030.
9.We will maintain free entry to museums.
10.We will protect free TV licences for over-75s.

The member you replied to has some good points. There seems to be nothing in the Labour manifesto which Labour is not promising including the items I’ve listed above. Why should all these services be provided free? Particularly items 8, 9 and 10. It’s one thing to help people in need like The Good Samaritan. It’s quite another to promise everything whether or not it’s needed/deserved. Labour states time again that there are x number of billionaires in this country and that the rich should be paying more but they don’t seem to be encouraging people to be more responsible for themselves, rather they are doing the opposite. Labour acts as though we were all born with the right to free care from cradle to grave. I’ve news for them -it has to be paid for. Why is it that when Labour were in power that regions like the North East and South Wales didn’t have surges in success or equality with `the other half’? How is Labour going to pay for all these promises? In addition to increasing taxes, they’ll borrow like there’s no tomorrow.
3. All alcohol already has labels. The cost to change them to have anything else on them is miniscule.
9. Free entry into museums encourages people to go into them and learn from them. Note they say maintaining free entry.
The Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A) in London introduced a £5 admission charge in 1997 and saw its visitor numbers halved as a result.

The national museums which dropped charges all saw substantial increases to their visitor numbers, an average of 70 percent. In the first year after free admission was introduced visitor figures to the V&A rose by 111 percent from 1.1 million to 2.3 million. In 2009, the Art Fund found that “since free admission was introduced in 2001, visits to previously charging museums have more than doubled, from 7.2 million eight years ago to 16 million last year". Eight out of the top ten UK visitor attractions in 2010 were free national museums
Universal free admission to the UK’s national museums - Centre for Public Impact (CPI)
 

CommonSense

Active Member
3. All alcohol already has labels. The cost to change them to have anything else on them is miniscule.
9. Free entry into museums encourages people to go into them and learn from them. Note they say maintaining free entry.
The Victoria and Albert Museum (V&A) in London introduced a £5 admission charge in 1997 and saw its visitor numbers halved as a result.

The national museums which dropped charges all saw substantial increases to their visitor numbers, an average of 70 percent. In the first year after free admission was introduced visitor figures to the V&A rose by 111 percent from 1.1 million to 2.3 million. In 2009, the Art Fund found that “since free admission was introduced in 2001, visits to previously charging museums have more than doubled, from 7.2 million eight years ago to 16 million last year". Eight out of the top ten UK visitor attractions in 2010 were free national museums
Universal free admission to the UK’s national museums - Centre for Public Impact (CPI)
You say all alcohol has labels. Correct me if I'm wrong because I don't frequent pubs and night clubs etc, but I don't recall seeing warnings about alcohol misuse at the bars. Does a person who goes out on a Friday night to deliberately get `rat-arsed', `drunk-as-a-skunk', `pissed-as-a-newt' not already know he/she is mistreating themselves?
Regarding free museums: Why should tax payers fund entry to museums? Why shouldn't museums be able to charge for their up-keep? It's just another example of getting something for nothing.
 

Derek S-H

Distinguished Member
This is meant for richp007 following his reply to Rupert slippers (sorry I don't have full effective use of this Forum yet)-

Some direct quotes from the Labour manifesto:

1. We will uphold the principle of comprehensive healthcare by providing free annual NHS dental check-ups.
2. The re-emergence of measles is an indictment. – my comment: measles has NOT re-emerged due to the Government.
3. Alcoholic drinks will be labelled with clear health warnings. -my comment: only an alien doesn’t know that alcohol in excess is damaging. Who is going to pay for this labelling? Why should society pay for people who go to great excesses drinking and get sick and belligerent on the streets. The individual who drinks is responsible for doing so.
4. We will abolish prescription charges in England.
5. We will provide free personal care.
6. Within five years, all 2, 3 and 4-year- olds will be entitled to 30 hours of free preschool education.
7. We will ‘poverty-proof’ schools, introducing free school meals for all primary school children.
8. Labour will deliver free full-fibre broadband to all by 2030.
9.We will maintain free entry to museums.
10.We will protect free TV licences for over-75s.

The member you replied to has some good points. There seems to be nothing in the Labour manifesto which Labour is not promising including the items I’ve listed above. Why should all these services be provided free? Particularly items 8, 9 and 10. It’s one thing to help people in need like The Good Samaritan. It’s quite another to promise everything whether or not it’s needed/deserved. Labour states time again that there are x number of billionaires in this country and that the rich should be paying more but they don’t seem to be encouraging people to be more responsible for themselves, rather they are doing the opposite. Labour acts as though we were all born with the right to free care from cradle to grave. I’ve news for them -it has to be paid for. Why is it that when Labour were in power that regions like the North East and South Wales didn’t have surges in success or equality with `the other half’? How is Labour going to pay for all these promises? In addition to increasing taxes, they’ll borrow like there’s no tomorrow.
Just wanted to bump this Thread, and your response in particular.

I see you haven't been back since March 2020. What happened then? Oh yes, borrowing like there's no tomorrow became absolutely essential to maintain a functioning society, which basically eliminates your entire last paragraph as an argument against government funding.

Also, since then, we've had the Tories find yet another way to enrich their already-wealthy mates under dubious PPE contracts, and Cummings admit that the Leave campaign lied to the voters.

So I guess some people are very good at getting something for nothing.
 

MrsArcanum

Member
I take issue with every point you make.

Executing the will of their constituents is the secondary duty of MPs. The primary duty being the exercise of their own judgement as to what is in the best interests of their constituents based on the experience, opinions, and research of that MP.

Any MP who undertakes their duties regardless of whether it conflicts with the will of their constituents is not a traitor. They are simply MPs doing their duty. That word has no place being used to describe any member of parliament.

It is not for MPs to conform to the erroneous expectations of the electorate. It should be the responsibility of the citizenry to educate themselves as to how their own government works.

Representing ignorance should not be an aspirational goal for our government.
We have representatives as MPs not delegates. This is a problem a lot of voters don't want to understand.
 

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