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Brave Decision: i choose the Sagem 50.

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by digitize, Feb 20, 2005.

  1. digitize

    digitize
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    I am announcing that I have taken the brave decision of buying the SAGEM AXIUM DLP-50 !

    I know I could be criticized for doing this because with the money I used, I could've bought a DLP set which is HDCP-enabled (like the Toshiba 46 or 52). But I did do a bit of research, and more...

    I went to Comet last Friday, brought along with me a few DVDs (R1,R2, legal, pirated, original, copies - didn't watch them all though), home VCD and even my Karaoke NTSC composite machine. Sure there were only 3 of them to compare (Sagem, Samsung50, and Toshiba46) but I've discounted Optoma/Themescene because of lack of NTSC support, also tested and discounted LG and Sony LCDrp, and the others were just cost-prohibitive... I didn't get the chance to test Sagem45 but I'm not bothered as it has smaller screen, higher price and problems already reported through avforums (like the green push, dodgy speakers, limited viewing angle, etc).

    In short, the Sagem 50 was IMO the best for me - it simply had the best picture performance (just superb and awesome) and overall quality (although Toshiba was best in sound).

    Of course I considered hi-def and HDCP, but in the end, they didn't become very important... If however, in the future this will become necessary, I will use HTPC... I also think that Sky/BBC's announcement that HD broadcasts will only be availabe with HDCP - will be beaten by such products we might in the future know as 'HDCP enabler', 'HDCP disabler', HDCP adaptor, etc, etc. And I think they will soon realize that 'HDCP-only' is not a good proposition, because of the mere fact that majority of the British public do not own such sets, and will not buy another set for the purpose of watching hi-def (most still not got the hang of standard dvds - how many have digital TV? have Sky? have widescreen? have dvd recorder?)...

    Isn't it that in America, most HDTV is watched using the component input?... Why then should UK not go towards that direction?

    Now for the reason why I'm starting this thread... As I'm expecting the delivery of my Sagem50 from Comet end of next week, I appreaciate if anyone could give me advice/pointers/hints as to how I could maximize the capability of the Sagem50... like I mean how do I set it up? what is the best multi-region DVD player to partner it with? any problems I might expect? how will I solve them? how to use the different AV connections? etc, etc...

    BTW, I'll be using the Sagem at present for DVD, Freeview and XBox... and for the future, hi-def using HTPC, or either Blue-Ray or HD dvd, and DivX, also hi-def gaming...

    Thanks. Long live to good old home entertainment...
     
  2. St_ve

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    Just get a HTPC you get great DVD playback & use the DVI input.
    It's hollywood pushing the HDCP not sky or the BBC they just have to go along if they want to show hidef flims from America .I expect the BBC will broadcast some hidef material that won't need HDCP
     
  3. Razor

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    bbc are looking at 2010 to 2012 before HD will be avialible, long wait.
     
  4. Chris5

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    also HDCP will be applied to all material out of the sky box, this will be because it will be cheaper to do so, why spend a fortune on sending a signal along with the transmition to tell the sky box to apply, or not apply HDCP. it is simpler to apply HDCP to everything, so no you wont be able to watch any sky HD on the sagem.
     
  5. TonyA

    TonyA
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    Indeed - at present the "majority" don't own sets capable of viewing High Definition source material, but I think you will find that once HD becomes available, there will be a big uptake - slow at first, granted, but it will catch on.

    However, as 99% of the sets capable of viewing HD will support HDCP via DVI or HDMI, then the issue of HDCP support goes out of the window.

    This will be built into the TV's e.g. no additional cost - if such a thing appears as a "HDCP adaptor" what sort of cost will there be attached to that - I'd hazard a guess at no less than £100.

    And there will be no benefit of attaching such a device to say a 32" CRT set in the first place.

    The Sagem although HD compatible, is the only HD capable set that I know of that doesn't support HDCP - which is why it's not on my shopping list.

    T.
     
  6. digitize

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    Chris5, HDCP will be applied to ALL material out of the sky box?... I doubt that, how can Sky justify that if a lot of their customers will not have HDCP sets, huh?

    TonyA, I don't think that Sagem 50 is the only HD capable set that doesn't support HDCP. Look further arround and you may find there are a lot more.

    I just wanted to ask - How about Blue-Ray & HD dvd, will not I be able to use those using the Sagem50?... At any rate, I will use an intelligent box HTPC anyway - this IMO is the way forward !
     
  7. Chris5

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    the only digital output (HDMI) of the sky HD box will apply HDCP to everything it outputs, its a simple as that
     
  8. fleagledog

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    first of all it will be a separate sky box anyway, therefore all of the material will probably be HDCP. Secondly, blue ray & HD DVD will undoubtably be HDCP since most of the material will be from hollywood. Certainly, when I spent all of this money on a TV it was essential that would be able to pick up 90% of the HD content that will be around in the next few years. If you like the Sagem (I have a tosh) then you should go for the HD45. I'm sure that you will not notice the loss of 5 inches.
     
  9. digitize

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    fleagledog, I couldn't find a place to see the Sagem 45, and I've had feedbacks that the vertical viewing on this is not good - so I didn't bother.

    The French review is also not as good as the Sagem50... I actually thought that aside from incorporating HDCP, Sagem didn't do much improvement from the 50...

    Will I not be able to watch HDCP material DVDs using HTPC then with the Sagem 50? Will I not be able to software-control HDCP?
     
  10. neilmcl

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    I saw the 45 in JL on Nottingham this weekend and was very impressed. The vertical viewing ratio is no worse than the 50, in fact having seen the 50 in Comet as well I would say it was much better. Also as the price is exactly the same I would prefer something that's a lot more future proof particularly as you're spending nearly 2K.
     
  11. Razor

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    I agree. Its madness buying a set that has the resolution to display HD material but doesnt take HDCP. HD is the way forward just as CD's, DVD's, widescreen TV's were. Theres no fighting it, its coming, its better than aanything we have seen before and it will become the standard.
    Hollywood are the people pushing this HDCP and its plain to see why with the amount of piracey out there.
     
  12. treebeard

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    Have they set it up properly now?

    It had an awful picture on it when I saw it last week. What were they using as an input source?
     
  13. neilmcl

    neilmcl
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    They've got it connected via DVI showing off a HD brodcast but I also saw the terrestial input which wasn't too bad. The problem is that they've placed the 45 in a position where you're standing right on top of it for which the vertical viewing aspect is an issue but if you stand back on the other side of the front row of TVs you get a much better view. It's amazing how many people commented that the screen looked too dark until I explained this.

    The set got a lot of interest on the Saturday especially as it was showing the Arsenal game, it's a shame stores don't bother to showcase products like this better by placing them in a more appropriate position.
     
  14. ~~ RPH ~~

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    Hi guys, Have been watching forums since last November and bought Axium 50" in December from Comet ( Bangor - N.Wales ) I was Impreesed by the hi-def PC feed (like everyone else back then) I've had a couple of teething problems with the set, switching on from standby and AV7 problems(more of a problem than the standby thing which is easily sorted by flicking the switch at night - these are to be rectified by a T.S.G engineer coming out to fix via software update etc. ). Anyway to date I have been totally impressed by the set and picture quality has been much better than I expected ( Sky sports included ) The main reason I have replied is that whilst talking to Sagem last
    week, the guy who I spoke to confirmed - and I asked him if I could quote him !! - "Sagem axium 50" sets will have HDCP board upgrade at cost to Sagem installed this year before Sky Hi-def goes live" . As an Axium owner I personally am very concerned about this issue but following my conversation came away feeling much more confident that this will be resolved. So read into this what you will, I hope I am not being naive, but the guy was under no pressure from me during the conversation and I must say Top marks to Sagem *** best customer service I have ever dealt with *** has anyone else recently spoke to sagem about this issue?? are there any conflicting stories !!!
     
  15. fleagledog

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    I'll be honest and say that I don't know everything about HDCP but since everything stays in the digital domain, I would have thought it would be a tough nut to crack, much more so than region encoding for example. But I will make my point again. Sagem had (I think) the only TV on the market with an HD non HDCP compliant socket. They have now replaced the TV with ones with HDCP compliant sockets. If I were buying now, then that would have to figure into the equation. For those people who already have a 50, bummer. If Sagem choose to replace the socket (and there are a lot of conficting reports on this) then great but I certainly would not rely on it. Why buy something that is already obsolete unless it was 50% normal price? I understand what you are saying about the vertical viewing angle but I have seen the Tosh and the 50 and see little difference if any on the angle. Therefore I suspect the 45 will be similar. The bottom line is if you truely believe that you are not going to want to watch any HDCP encoded material then go for the 50, otherwise look elsewhere.
     
  16. St_ve

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    Sagem have been giving out misleading information about a HDCP upgrade for a month now one minute it's going to be fixed the next it's not it's about time they came clean & issued an official statement to settle the matter.
    I expect the BBC to be broadcasting some hidef material way before 2012 the date when they say all broadcasts will be in HiDef
    It may be possible to get round HDCP using a HTPC sometime in the future but at this point in time buying the Sagem 50" with the intention of watching sky hidef in 2006 is a big gamble.
     
  17. loz

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    There won't be "HDCP adaptors" because the whole idea is to keep tight control between the source and the display.
    Whilst technically it may well be possible to make such adaptors, the content producers and broadcasters who insist on HDCP will frown upon such devices and no doubt pursue manufacturers and retailers through the courts. (not that this has stopped similar devices in the past to defeat macrovision for example, however hollywood is getting much more willing to sue folks nowadays because of piracy, and allowing unprotected HD material is a clear piracy risk)

    Of course there will be some none HDCP protected HD content available. But don't expect to see much of that on Sky's programming content, or mainstream commercial DVDs.
    At the same time perhaps we shouldn't confuse the Sky HD box, with Sky HD content. It may well be that some HD content will be transmitted via the Sky platform - by BBC for example - that doesn't require HDCP.
    But even so, because of piracy I can't see many broadcasters wanting to broadcast HD "in the clear" so to speak - even the BBC want to prevent piracy of their content.

    Sky for example will have no worries about forcing HDCP on people. Their platform as been watertight from an encryption/authentication point of view, and hence has forced consumers to pay subscriptions, and ensured Sky has complete control over any hardware.
    Similarly, they will ensure that HD is similarly watertight. And if that means consumers must buy new hardware, then that isn't going to worry Sky one bit - they are in it for the long term. They will also using programming to drive uptake, with exclusive HD content such as first run shows, movies and sports. As a major content producer themselves (news corp) there is little likelihood that Sky are going to let HDCP content work out of their box with anything other than HDCP displays.

    Frankly buying a HD set that isnt HDCP enabled seems extremely shortsighed and very risky strategy if you want to view HD material in future.
     
  18. Razor

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    I agree loz. Well put.
     
  19. St_ve

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    Once sky hidef arrive's i bet their existing broadcasts gradualy get worse to encourage takeup of the new hidef service.
     
  20. schnipps

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    With all respect that would never happen. What you have to look at is what mr x has in his living room, and by and large its a 28" screen. Now sky and telewests crappy signal doesnt really show up on a 28 and if they dropped the bit rate even more you probably still wouldnt get the vast majority even blinking an eye to it.

    What will happen will be like the dvd revolution, there will be mass marketing and i mean mass for hidef, it will be like the second coming of the dvd, but i seriously dont think this will happem for a while.

    As for sky, they will likely start pushing out various stuff in hidef next year, possibly some documentaries or newer films, but it will be subscription based and they will hammer you for it to start with, like whan sky+ first came out.

    I have no idea how this will all begin marketing wise as its not like anything before, as in you NEED to have a tv capable of receiving it to view it. It will be interesting to see how this all comes about as only av nuts know anything about hidef now, 99.9% of the population hasnt even heard of it.
     
  21. mrmoo

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    I've been with Sky from the day they switched on. They have been very clever in the way they push new technology. I remember them gradually moving away from analogue receivers and in the end killing the transmission. They’ll put the best stuff on HD channels, they'll have introductory offers to get early adopters with cheap packages for normal stuff and charge you way too much for the premium channels. The equipment will be subsidised in retail stores, like Sky+ was £50 in Argos, always with contracts in the small print. The reason? To many people ripping of transmissions with DVB's cards and swapping them on Bittorent. It’s a forgone conclusion that HDCP is coming and I wouldn’t expect a decoder box either as the technology is licensed. If you want to watch HDTV don’t buy a set without HDCP, it’s not worth the risk.
     
  22. acanning

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    When we talk about add-on decoder boxes whats to stop someone producing a box which takes a HDCP encoded signal and outputs say a component signal. There surely isn't a problem if the output is analogue is there? Not perfect I know, but a good component signal isn't 'alf bad!! I have a Sagem Axium and am banking on this as a solution if Sagem don't come up with the upgrade goods. Incidently, I have been told on two occasions by Sagem that they are definitely producing a solution for existing owners.
    Time will tell!!
     
  23. Razor

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    DVI/HDMI connection is far superior to the component connection. Why use an inferior connection. How many people would use the composite connection over RGB scart or component?

    DVI/HDMI is digital, component isn't. Similar to cassette vs cd.

    This one of the main benifits of having a DLP tv a digital input, not using it would mean your not getting the best out of your set.

    BTW High Def is amazing, I have over 10 films, few different series (Lost, 24, Atlantis) and a few docu's and I'm hooked. Cant wait for sky HD. :thumbsup:
     
  24. TonyA

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    Has anyone noticed though, that all of the Sky AV equipment (advertised in the back of the Sky Magazine each month)... none of it supports HD?

    Ironic really....

    :rolleyes:

    T.
     
  25. digitize

    digitize
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    There'll be many solution possiblities...

    I'll be banking on using a clever HTPC box (possibly running Unix/Linux), able to software-control and decode HDCP, to allow it to be fed into a non-HDCP port...

    This link is quite interesting :

    http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/leaayoun/pcw.pdf
     
  26. St_ve

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    At the moment u can download plenty of hidef tv shows from the states. They might close the loophole sometime in the future.
    I think the takeup of hidef sets will be very rapid once they start broadcasting hidef
    there's some great DLP sets for £2000 how long before the price drops below £1000 once they go mass market.
     
  27. digitize

    digitize
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    True. The ways and means of receiving HD will also become easier... it will then be possible to watch hi-def with HD-capable sets which are non-HDCP compliant...

    Steve, can you provide some link to the download sites? Thanks.

    BTW, what are the HD DLP sets then, sub £2000? I only know the Tosh 46/52, and Sagem 45, possibly Optoma/Themescene (but who wants one without NTSC & R1?)...
     
  28. St_ve

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    I have the Optoma RD50 & i'm very happy with it i have over 120 R1 DVD's & they look superb using a PC
    At the moment there's plenty of hidef out there but you will need a PC to play it.I don't believe you'll be able to watch the sky hidef sevice unless Sagem come through with the HDCP upgrade.
    try a search on e donkey
     
  29. Razor

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    Do a search for 720p, 1080i or HDTV on e-donkey. 24, lost, csi, atlantis, enterprise, smallville are all in HDTV. Download the 700meg files and not the 350meg as these are not HDTV. It has been ripped from HDTV but with loads of compression and half the resolution. Dream time, praying mantis are docus that are very impressive. Praying mantis weighs in at 2.81 gig.

    Good luck.

    For retail dvd's try this link below.

    http://babel.altavista.com/babelfis...ww.neodigits.com/body/product/HVD108/hvds.asp

    http://www.high-def.de/

    Click on shop then on the film you require and a list of ten films come up.
     
  30. digitize

    digitize
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    Will these hd DVDs play on an HTPC with a normal DVD player (like mine which is Plextor)? I presume there are not yet any Blue-Ray or HD-DVD players that can be installed on PCs.

    I'm not worried about Sky Hi-Def, I don't even subscribe to Sky...

    I'll play HD-DVDs with an HTPC instead.
     

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