BNP / UKIP - Are they both Good/Bad - If so how and Why?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by AnthonyG, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Hi,

    I was not sure if political topics/questions were allowed on the forum, but I have just noticed the thread below in General Chat discussing the BNP and everyone not too happy with their MEP's getting elected. But felt this separate question/topic maybe deserved a new thread, or hoped it would deserve a new thread so replies would be concentrated on this topic alone.

    But I have been watching BBC and Sky news on Sunday evening and today on the EU elections and everyone interviewed seems to be giving out absolute derivation of the BNP, but so far not the UKIP and I am trying to find out why exactly.

    This is not a topic to suggest I support either parties, as I must have been living in a cave for the last 29 years as I don't really know who they are to be honest.

    I suspect this is because I been a born and bred Liberal Democrat supporter which still am but slightly disagree with their stance on Europe and immigration so was in seriously two minds on voting LD on the EU elections this time as this is very different to the Local Council elections who I definitely agree with LD's stances on local issues but slightly disagree with that on Europe.

    I have obviously read both their websites before voting and both BNP and UKIP state they have basically the exact same goals and missions stated on there.

    However the UKIP party website actually says the BNP is racist and they are not, and strangely enough the BNP website says the exact same thing on theirs about the UKIP party and that they are not.

    So why is one so far derived and one respected?

    Can anyone provide any links to unbiased reports/articles of what the BNP has actually done wrong to be hated?

    People offhandedly say they are Neo-Nazies, is this solely because they don't support immigration, if so are the UKIP Neo-Nazies for this stance too? - if not what is different. They both have never been in power before so assume they have not had the chance to make these changes they want and possibly done something wrong in the past. So am a bit lost

    I ask this, which I realize is sort of after the fact, but I last week had my ballot paper in my hand for about 15 minutes trying to contemplate who to vote for.

    I seriously wanted to vote for either the UKIP or the BNP, but was not sure what the difference was and if both were just bad and I would receive comeuppance.

    I went to their websites, googled around and was still unsure. However I also remembered, which was the clincher to just sticking with LD, the situation a few months back where all the BNP voters names got leaked on the internet and it was a furiour and people got sacked from their jobs and houses vandalized due to them supporting them (nice evidence that we still live in a democracy here in the UK).

    The trash newspapers are just scaremongering I feel with their reports, and also don't therefore read them, as I suspect this is how they get people to read them.

    And I have not found and respected source articles on the subject explaining why they are disliked.

    So to ask again what is the difference between the BNP and UKIP and why is it if they have (seemingly) the exact same agenda and is one actually respected and the other not, and why is this the case if both parties seem to say its each other that is the evil one and not theirs.

    Thanks for anyones info
    Anthony
     
  2. Codehead

    Codehead
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    From
    British National Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And
    United Kingdom Independence Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    BNP Ideals: White nationalism, British nationalism, Right-wing populism, Euroscepticism, Third Position, Fascism

    UKIP Ideals: Euroscepticism, Populism, Conservatism

    Basicly the UKIP just want out of Europe. The BNP want non-whites out of Britain.


    Here's just one reason I won't vote BNP:
     
  3. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thanks Codehead

    But all you have linked to is wikipedia, wikipedia is really just peoples opinions and can be based on just interpretation.

    When in my university studies were were given a point blank instruction of not to really trust anything written in wikipedia due to those above reasons.

    The other issue is the final point you made

    The two winning MEP's went on the TV and stated categorically for the record that this was not true and simply part of a smear campaign by either the Sun or the Express (I forget which paper they said was doing it). I also believe one of the two winning MEP's is actually the leader of the BNP (Someone correct me if I am wrong on that though)

    It may be true and they do oppose it, but if they do, it just seems odd that the leader of the BNP after winning the election (and the people in that area are stuck with him for 4 years) would he then say categorically they did not say this or believe this and largely most of it was untrue.

    If they did mean it, there would be the time to say the said it and meant it as they had just won.

    To say again my question is not of support its of ignorance I truly don't know what they both are about.

    Here is a link to the BBC story on the two wins

    BBC NEWS | Politics | BNP secures two European seats

    And it says

    But nowhere does it say why.

    And then lower down it says David Cameron said

    But what have they done exaclty, I have heard of absolutely no stories of any evils the BNP have done, none, or for that matter about the UKIP.

    There was talk of Kilroy Silk doing something bad in 2004 which cost them votes, and on looking on the BBC news site is said

    BBC NEWS | Politics | Kilroy: We'll wreck EU Parliament

    But this is the UKIP, who today on the news seemed to be supported as somewhat hero's unless I have misinterpreted this stance on them too (personally I find the above comments from a UKIP worrying so doubt they would be heralded as a good party).

    On watching winning response from the BNP (I think the other winner was a college/university lecturer). Nothing hate speech, or abusive came from their mouths. They gave good responses.

    But even with that they were still seemingly reviled as slime by the labour/conservative/LD politicians for saying what seems a good winning speech - which makes this all the more confusing.

    Finally Gordon Brown seems to be getting a whole lot of slack, and I say while I dislike the man, a lot of it is unjustified, so is this flack the BNP/UKIP may get just more unjustified flack or is there something I am seriously missing here?

    Which if so could someone link me to the news article on it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  4. nwgarratt

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    I don't think it is fair to group UKIP with BNP. They are not like each other. UKIP just want out of Europe. Race doesn't comes into it. If they are are to be believed, £40 million gets spent on Europe each day !! and could do wonders for things like Education and the NHS. They are concerned with putting the UK first rather than Europe dictating laws.
     
  5. Wild Weasel

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    The way I see it, UKIP takes voters away from the Conservatives and the BNP takes voters away from Labour.
     
  6. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Yes good point on Europe and one of the reasons why I was considering one of the two.

    But agan with the BNP their victory speach from the other winner (which again I think is a uni lecturer but please correct me).

    He said when asked who could be part of the BNP he said anyone (this is not word for word) that was the children from people living in the UK immediately post WW2.

    Which when thinking of it - to my eyes - is not racist. (or am I jut being naive again and is it).

    As in there were ethnic minorities living in the UK post WW2, so presumably they would be welcomed too (or would they not and this is the reason and problem with the BNP).

    Also if not is it simply this "must have been living in the UK post WW2" why they have been mixed in with the Nazies due to this was the reason for WW2 or is it another reason?

    Why exactly, is this that left and right thing (something again I am not sure on what is means).

    Conservitives are the left, and Labour the Right and Liberal Democrats the Center.

    But on BBC news yesterday there was a discussion that in Europe there are all these groups for parties to fit in.

    And that David Cameron has himself removed Conservative from these current groups to form his own which he needed seven other EU parties to also join to allow him to do this, and so far inside this group many that have joined are a load of other countries racist parties and far right parties.

    Which to me if true says something very off about this new group David Cameron has setup for EU stance.

    (I am probably over analysing all this and I think you need to have a degree in politics to understand all this stuff in my opinion anyway).
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  7. oakie

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    You sure - (allegedly) UKIP's David Pascoe was a founder of the National Front and a member of National Socialist Movement as well as the Greater Britain Movement.
     
  8. krish

    krish
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    On the surface that may be so, but they've both had officials and elected representatives convicted of benefit fraud (whilst attacking mainstream party MPs regarding their snouts in the trough), and UKIP has also repeatedly had defections to the BNP, many BNP candidates have previously stood for election on a UKIP ticket, UKIP once had a candidate who's proposer was a BNP official, and UKIP has had to expel members who've been exposed publicly as having BNP and far-right links.

    A little Googling provides a wealth of information, not just one or two uncorroborated blogs.
     
  9. Codehead

    Codehead
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    Fair enough. TBH, I tend to go to Wikipedia for technical stuff that is black and white and follow the links onwards if I need clarification. It's out of habit that I quoted it here.

    The Gurkha thing just leapt out at me as I scanned the page and thought it was worth mentioning.
     
  10. krish

    krish
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    @ Anthony1uk:-

    re BNP and the Gurhas ...
    Nick Griffin on BBC 5 Live during this election campaign:
    "We don't think the most overcrowded country in Europe, can realistically say, 'Look, you can all come and all your relatives.' When the Gurkhas signed up - frankly as mercenaries - they expected a pension which would allow them to live well in their own country ... Because of economic development in Nepal, the British Army pension isn't now enough for them to be able to do that. It would be cheaper for us and probably far better for the Gurkhas to say, 'Why don't we just increase your pension so that more of you can live in Nepal rather than coming to Britain?'"

    re BNP and the Nazis ...
    Nick Griffin 'was' a holocaust denier, and that was pretty much the NF/BNP party line, until a makeover for the electorate - certainly doesn't stop them all expressing their bile off the record. Just look up Mark Collet. The words spots and leopard spring to mind.

    HTH :)
     
  11. Steven

    Steven
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  12. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thank you krish.

    Could I ask due to your earlier post where you said

    Would you therefore say in your opinion and what you may have prior read, do you believe both UKIP and BNP to be equally bad or one good the other not?

    It does seem odd about the Gurkhas and that BBC 5 comment as in his victory speech it seemed the leader of the BNP called any thing regarding the BNP and the Gurkas was just a smear campaign by one of the newspapers.

    From the other thread as someone mentioned the leader was not a good public speaker though.

    It was more so the comments from the other elected gentleman (who was a considerably better public speaker) and the absolute derivation his comments were twisted by Labour/Conservative and LD MP's that really peaked my curiosity to prompt posting this question.
     
  13. kbfern

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    As far as I am aware the Gurkas get paid around £16k a year in the army and as the annual average income in Nepal is around £400 do they need a pension?.

    If they do a 6 yr stint in the army one assumes they will be able to put away at least the equiv of 60yrs Nepalese wages whilst in the British army.Thats only assuming they save £4k of their wages a year.

    This is one of the reasons that the Nepalese are so keen to be recruited to the army.
     
  14. SteveAWOL

    SteveAWOL
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    Nick Griffin stated in this interview (about 7mins in) that you must be white and "of British and closely kindred stock"

    BNP Leader Nick Griffin On Winston Churchill Advert Campaign - Sky News Video Player

    So despite being born and bred in England and considering myself British, due to being half West Indian myself, I wouldn't be allowed to join.
     
  15. Codehead

    Codehead
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    They have to live over here while they serve, and pay for things in our economy. 12k (assuming saving 4k a year) doesn't go very far on the UK high street.

    Also, these guys are very committed, work very hard and put themselves in the line of fire for UK interests (who was guarding Prince Ginger in Afghan?). I'd rather give any one of them a home over a 'True Brit' who is an expert in drinking Special Brew and watching Jeremy Kyle.
     
  16. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Going off topic now but I would say they would need a pension and deserve one.

    The may have got 16k a year during the war they fought in but when retired you are no longer on an income and need the pension.

    And also you can't expect people in retirement age to be productive members of the armed forces.

    So I was all for Joanna Lumley's fight for allowing the Gurka's to stay and that is why I was annoyed with Gordon Brown refusing to allow this for a long time.

    And also why it seemed at the time yesterday that newspapers were claiming the BNP were supposidely supporting Gordon Brown on this when they said they weren't (but Krish's BBC5 link seems to have maybe shown the BNP leader to be a bit of a hipocrit if he did contradict himself like that).

    But what does also annoy me while on this subject is when you saw Gordon Brown make pledges some time back of "British Jobs for British people" just as a popularity vote, and then later him try to back track (in that terrible way he does) saying that restricting jobs would have been illegal in the UK - if so why make pledges like that in the first place.

    I don't like him that much but I do hope Cameron puts Brown out of a job and soon. By far the lesser of two evils is all I can say about Cameron

    /Closing my off topic post now/
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  17. pandemic

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    Just because the average wage is £400 doesn't mean it is enough to live on, there is a lot of poverty in the country and big gaps between rich and poor. I would assume decent Nepali wage would amount to about £4000/year. Not to mention the many people in Nepal rely on the Gurkha to bring money in the country. You'd have to visit the place to understand.
     
  18. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thanks for that link Steve.

    As I say to get this type of information from a reliable news source was exactly why I started this thread.

    The problem with the Conservites/Labour/LD's is that there were saying the BNP was bad and not to vote for them - but they gave no reasons why they held this stance.

    And at the same breath they were then saying don't vote Labour to get rid of Brown - and thus while I dislike the man you cannot really fault anyone else if they like him and want to vote for him - I was thus figuring it was the same stance on these two lesser parties.

    So and as I say seriously after the fact. But if someone was wanting to make a stance on no to immigration and no to other EU restictions.

    If UKIP and BNP were not a good vote due to other agenda's the parties have then who on that list should I have maybe voted for (there were a load of parties No2EU, Jury Team, Green Party and many more I have forgot and none I have heard of).
     
  19. pumpkin 1970

    pumpkin 1970
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    im all for the B.N.P and always have been, sure they have a few dodgy people, they might be classed as racist but honestly whats wrong with english people getting english jobs first??? i was made redundant in december and have just got a job on an agency, in the factory theres 147 agency staff. 131 of which are chech/poles, and if my vote gets a few to go home/limit the amount that gets in each year, well thats fine with me! as for the gurkahs! if they let the 50.000 in if they bring there wives thats 100.000 extra people in and as there mostly elderly/disabled thats a bigger strain on the nhs and other benefits! flame away.... and im not a racist
     
  20. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Personally speaking the first part of your post I totally agree with.

    If Gordon Brown can make a pledge of British Jobs for British people, and then renege on that pledge then finding a party that also supports this stance is totally fair.

    The second part regarding the Gurkah's I don't agree with, these people fought and died for the country protecting it from enemies wishing to do it harm.

    If we are wasting £40 million per day on immigration areas as someone posted earlier, then paying the fraction for 50 or 100 thousand Gurkas pensions/medical costs is totally worth it considering what they done.

    But the thing I truly do not get with this matter is these politicians for the BNP/UKIP, they are very intelligent people - by their nature you don't get into politics unless you are way above average intelligence.

    They are not thick or disillusioned in any way shape or form, so they must know what would and would not cause offence and what would be a party stance to get people to support them.

    So Kilroy saying what he did when he won, and the BNP leader saying what Steve and Krish have quoted above is really just party suicide and quite stupid for them to do for their respective parties - and thus makes the whole party non mass viable IMHO.

    As if they run just on the stances people wanted and not these crazy minority beliefs they would likely be very viable options (as I said I was seriously wanting to put my X next to either one of them but bottled out and just stuck with LD).
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  21. krish

    krish
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    I don't view UKIP in the same way as the BNP. UKIP is composed mainly of former Tories ... those obviously of the Eurosceptic persuasion. I certainly don't regard Nigel Farage as a racist. The party however has a history of unsavoury members ... but to be fair they are still a minority within UKIP.

    The BNP however is just the National Front (far-right white supremacist party/movement of the 70s and 80s) with a dusted down middle-England makeover ... but that makeover is purely cosmetic when you actually scratch below the surface and examine the backgrounds of their officials and elected reps, the posts on their associated internet forums, hidden camera vids of key people like Mark Collet.

    I also forgot to mention Nick Griffin's link to the KKK ... he is a friend of David Duke ...

    [youtube]04QolIvfQEw[/youtube]

    I don't care if he now distances himself from that as well as his holocaust denial ... leopard and spots again ;)
     
  22. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thanks for that info and video krish, it seems my query has definitely been answered now.

    To add I am now pleased I stayed loyal to the Liberal Democrats.
     
  23. Codehead

    Codehead
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    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  24. ghostdog

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    ah, the classic ....and I'm not racist right at the end :rolleyes:

     
  25. Saldawop

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    Is it racist to be against uncontrolled immigration, which we seem to have here.

    If so, then I AM a racist !
     
  26. Sonic67

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    General Chat is just peoples opinions as well.
     
  27. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thanks for that video Codehead, I was before clicking play getting prepared to get angry with its contents (I love Barak Obama and wish he was running this god awful mess we call UK).

    But from watching it I couldn't make sense of barely any of it. It was like the ramblings of a drunk man most of it had no coherence or logical sense to it.

    Personally speaking, I wouldn't say anything that pumpkin1970 posted was in anyway racist or that way of thinking if you were implying it maybe was?.

    The major parties have all agreed the three biggest reasons for Labours mauling were due to three issues 1. The MP's expenses, 2. Due to the recession and 3. Due to Immigration.

    I suppose it all depends on how you define racism though. But companies specifically hiring foreign workers over UK workers just as these foreign labour are cheap labour due to them having drastically lower wage demands than what is fair for the work they are doing.

    in my opinion when the UK workers get rightfully annoyed by this they are not being racist. In fact I would say it is these companies exploiting these foreign workers that are the racists.

    But again maybe this stance is racist and I am just naive.
     
  28. krish

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    No, and who here has said it is? :confused:
     
  29. AnthonyG

    AnthonyG
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    Thats not what I mean't I was not saying anything on Codeheads opinions. What I said was directed towards Wikipedia which is just people writing their own beliefs and agenda's.

    I could edit Gordon Browns Wikipedia page right now with whatever slanderous comments, and just justify them with a link to an unsubtaciated report from the Sun or Star newspaper.

    And due to this it may take a while for them to be removed or corrected.

    What I was earier asking for was some reliable trustworthy and definitely unbiased sources on why the BNP/UKIP were disliked, which Krish definitely provided in that very interesting and shocking video.
     
  30. Saldawop

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    Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, I was referring to the post from ghostdog a couple of posts above mine
     

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