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Blurring is dlp artifact

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by -TYN-, Jan 8, 2005.

  1. -TYN-

    -TYN-
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    Right guys i think we all agree that this problem exists and stop claiming to be able to make it vanish etc. This is unfair on potential buyers who would like to weigh up the pro's and cons before going out to purchase a tosh. It seems to be getting deperate when people start blaming a dvd. I sure many people have watched the bill, eastenders and coronation street for years so why is it only when the tosh is purchased people start to see this effect or have they started to change camera shutter speeds or add blurr effect to thier filming Its a problem that can be made to look worse with lower or higher quality sources but again not vanish. Sorry but i feel sorry for alot of prospective buyers who may or may not be dissappointed. Im sure Phunt and soni was pleased to have honest opinions and also admitted they could see the problem but weiged up the pro's and cons and made thier own decision and have been honest also. I think others potential buyers should do the same always view first and make your own decision.

    P.S. Tried gladiator on sony grand wega and toshiba 32 inch with no cartoony blurr.

    Look forward to people hopefully supporting this view.

    Check this link for info : http://twentysix.net/HLM507W/artifacts/
     
  2. Razor

    Razor
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    I have an RD65 and do not notice any blur in gladiator.
     
  3. -TYN-

    -TYN-
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    Optoma uses a seven segment wheel in the rd-65 so this should not concern you so much. :)
     
  4. Mose

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    I first noticed a very SLIGHT blurring when I first got my AXIUM. After experimenting with a few different leads, from my trusty local dealer, several different calibration tools and a few other pair of eyes, I think I managed to get rid of the more noticable blurring.

    Setting these DLP tvs up is a pain and all done by trial and error. My viewing position is approx 15ft from the screen. If I sit about 10ft from screen, naturally I begin to notice a lot of very MINOR artifacts. I have tried the R1 Gladiator and Sperbit Gladiator release and I cannot see any blurring on either pressing.

    On other more notorious discs, there are a lot of artifacts but I put this down to the inferior quality of the transfers and certainly not the limitations of the set. The engineer who recently called out to fix my AV7 board remarked on the quality of the picture on my set.

    If I really want to find fault in the picture of my AXIUM,. then it has to be the over exaggerated tones of white, which are very high, even when the contrast level is turned down to an acceptable level. Other than that, its only bad transfers that give poorer pictures.
     
  5. dalespitfire

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    Do we have yet another thread for this? :boring:

    As you said we all know it exists, we've all bought DLP's so we have to live with it.

    I'm starting to get a little p :censored: d off with reading about it now :mad:

    The issue is out in the open and people, like me (who purchased yesterday) have plenty of subject matter to go on and are perfectly capable of making their own minds up. Besides I think (at least) 3 threads are enough.

    I for one am looking forward to getting my new kit and imagine that properly set up the pros will massively outweigh the cons.
     
  6. fleagledog

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    TYN
    I would define an artifact as something that happens every time given the same set of cirmcumstances. The rainbow effect is definitely a DLP characteristic. Now I know it exists I can see it when I want to. It does not bother me at all but I cant speak for other people on this. However, the bluring effect (if I am seeing the same thing as everybody else) appears to some extent on all of the systems that I tested yesterday. There is no doubt that the tosh exagerates this, but I put this down to its size and sharpness of picture. And I do not see it in other similar pans. I also agree with dalespitfire in that I think that we ahve done this to death now. Either you are happy with your purchase (I am) or you are not, in which case you have to change it.
     
  7. -TYN-

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    I agree everbody i do not want it be talking about it anymore either i just think it needed to be confirmed that it just cannot be made to vanish.

    I am truly sorry if people are bored, but i bet some people that have purchased the set since reading the gladiator 3:16 thread are a bit worse than bored. Afterall it could sway some people to part with £1600 which is no joke.
    The word vanished that was used may have been a mistake and if so i appologise. Congrats on the purchase spitfire i must say my brother is still happy he kept his one which his now had for 3 weeks so i definatley think mostly people will be pleased considering the cost which is very cheap.

    Thanks guys and girls the end...hopefully :) ?
     
  8. katalyst2k

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    I have found no blurring when using HD Material which proves to me it is not the set but the quality of the broadcast. This is the best set i have ever had.

    Kat
     
  9. soni

    soni
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    IN DEFENSE OF TYN: I'm sure Tyn is a big enough bloke to stick up for himself, but i just feel it necessary to post the following:-

    If the following post offends anybody and cannot be taken constructively - and any individual feels it necessary to launch an attack-post at me, then so be it. However, I would just like to point, prior to posting, that its not meant personally TO ANYBODY!

    I think it’s a bit harsh for forum members to dictate to others what can be posted and what cannot. i.e., stating that they don't want any more threads with certain content i.e., regarding the blurring issue, and stating that they are now bored of reading threads on blurring. If you’re bored - then don't read it! It was clearly labelled on the main DLP Menu 'Blurring Is DLP Artifact'!!!! There are plenty of us who are still interested, if you don't want to read it, then don't open it! Simple! But don't try and control what can be posted and what cannot.

    There's enough room and space on this server for content of another nature should you wish to start a thread on something else - I don't see any moderators asking us to stop posting threads on blurring because its taking up valuable space - do you?

    I for one actually agree with Tyn. Its unfair to mislead any potential buyers into making a purchase believing that a problem will be cured if they buy certain kit or if they change certain settings if it won't. If a problem exists and it cannot be corrected - then state it! Don't forget the original reason why YOU came to these forums - to gain knowledge on a proposed purchase prior to parting with your hard earned cash. If you've made a mistake, then put your hands up, be honest with yourself and get it exchanged for something else or get your money back. But don't become bitter and twisted, trying to keep it hush hush and trying to convince yourself and others that the problem can be cured, so that others fall into the same trap - hoping it'll make you feel better. Because it won't!

    I have not received my Tosh yet, and to be honest with you, I have contemplated viewing it again tomorrow in store before delivery on Tuesday, so at least it would give me the opportunity of cancelling the delivery and exchanging it for something else, before i've even received it, if I don't think I could live with it.

    Stop dictating what can be posted and what cannot - we are all equal - remember!

    Go for it Tyn!
     
  10. -TYN-

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    Thx for that soni, i thought i was going to get bombed :) by everybody, but remember the truth is the only thing that helps in the end.

    God that sounded like a slogan from starwars or something, :laugh:
     
  11. fleagledog

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    Good point, well made.
     
  12. Razor

    Razor
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    I agree with you soni, well said. I have an Optoma RD65 and are non to pleased with a £4000-00 tv that cant play NTSC or PAL60 without juddering.
    If my good or bad experiances with this product can help others in which DLP set they choose, I am only to glad to help. In addition I gratefully apreciate other peoples advice and comments which they might have to offer.
     
  13. dalespitfire

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    Soni - It's not aimed at anyone other than me?! :clown:

    I feel I made my point clearly and well. There are already more than enough threads open on this problem :suicide:

    I haven't for one second said stop posting about the issue, more intended that we should keep the posts in maybe one of the threads, where they can all be seen and added to in one place. :smashin:

    What is the point in having half a dozen areas on one subject matter, where in 3 of them people say there is no problem, and in another 3 people are still moaning about it. :lease: You talk about an environment where people can come and learn? As far as I am concerned the more threads there are will only serve to confuse people that are looking for help. We clearly have an issue with the set, but what is the point in starting a new post for every single time see a related issue?

    Like I say, I only bought my set yesterday evening, and I am well aware of the potential problems with the Tosh. If I hate it, it goes back. If you hate yours, do the same.:devil:

    So to finish off, I am not dictating what can and can't be posted, and Soni, nor will I be dictated to. I'm merely using freedom of speech to say, the subject is already well out in the open for everyone to see.:lesson:

    Maybe we should have two threads and stick all the postings in there. "I love my Tosh", or "I hate my Tosh" ?

    Where I will be posting in the future remains to be seen...... :p
     
  14. phunt

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    well i agree with both of you lol :hiya:
    We should keep posting about this problem but also we should keep it in the same couple of threads.I myself am starting to get confused as to which thread i should post in so everyone will go and read it.My suggested threads whould be the "seen in Comet" one and the "Tosh Blur Poll".
    Also as it was me that first pointed out the gladiator 3:16 thing and it seems to becoming a bit of a benchmark id like to rename it in my honor to "The Gladiator Phunt Blur)lol :clown: .I quite like the idea of people all over the country going into Comet and asking if they may check threre dlp's for the gladiator phunt blur. :devil:
     
  15. dalespitfire

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    gotta love phunt :rotfl:

    agree about the threads too :smashin:
     
  16. soni

    soni
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    I think the problem with Threads is that their content can quickly change and in no time at all the title is meaningless. Personally, although others might disagree, I think each section i.e., DLP, Plasma, LCD, should have its own permanent thread that is constantly at the top no matter if somebody posts or not highlighting the most newly found problems/faults with each display. This way it would be ideally positioned and easily noticed by new viewers.

    Phunt: I will be going to Comet tomorrow and will be looking forward to winding the sales guy up big time. He's a really nice bloke, but was completely clueless about DLP's as I mentioned to him last week about rainbows and he looked at me completely clueless and puzzled and said rainbows? What on earth are they? After I told him, he was off telling his colleagues and showing off that he's just found out about rainbows! He should be the ideal candidate to spread the word of 'PAB's - 'Phunt's Artefact Blur'! I'll just have to keep a straight face whilst he's telling his colleagues this one. By next month, we'll even be having John Archer of What Video & Widescreen TV talking about 'PAB's'.

    Seriously though, you should be proud of your PAB discovery - you will surely be knighted!
     
  17. phunt

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    LMFAO :hiya:
     
  18. Delboy

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    Soni M8, i would advise you to see the tosh again in comet etc m8, in all honesty, having had mine up n running for 1 1/2 days, i gotta say, norm TV, ie sky for me, the blur/oil paint effect does stick out on SOME channels, well a few really. I can also say, if you use a mod xbox, using M$ Adv hd kit, even using a PAL game, the tosh is outstanding, i mean jaw dropping. The one game where i really noticed the diff was project gotham racing. M8, tis like your driving the car :) Watched Termanitor 2 tonight which is a R1, and again, played with the settings abit abd was also wicked. would give it 95% PQ on hdmi input, using the Panny 97. So, with proper DVDs, i think this set is worth keeping, imho, for me that is. If i hadnt read these forums, and with the advise ive seen and been told, i would have been very worried after seeing eastenders. What i have also noticed with the set, is that its like you can see peoples make up, like powdery, not the gloss finish i would see on a crt. So i think this set picks up on the smallest detail.

    Now the wifes watched the Tosh, and cant see what we are on about, kids are impressed, and ive changed the room aroud, as we were far too close to the set, as you could almost see the dots ive seen on a normal RPTV. But im/we now are about 10ft away, and much happier.

    Now i hope ive put this in the right place (topic wise) but wanted to say, that if some one had bought the tosh, not realising whats going on, they would more than likly be right on the phone to complain, if they even see this blur/paint issue.

    I will be asking other tosh users on here what settings they use, on the Tosh and the dvd player, cos i am a little confussed on some of the options on both, but will ask that in new thread.

    Anyway, soz for the long post, but wanted you to buy this TV with your eyes wide open, and armed with the knowlage of what to look for m8...:)

    del
     
  19. Elephant Man

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    I or we, my girlfriend and I notice this blurring (b4 Phunt posted the gladiator 3:16). Watching Corrie :blush: .A close-up of two characters sitting at a table in the Rovers, Both stood up quickly. Their faces looked like pasty oil paintings. My gf said hey did u see that.
     
  20. Delboy

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    wonder if it does it with a RF signal? I cant try, due to RF lead to plug in :)



    Del
     
  21. phunt

    phunt
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    Yes it does m8!
     
  22. soni

    soni
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    Thanks for your replies guys! I'm definately off to Comet again this morning, just to put my mind at rest really - as having two daughters (4yrs & 7 months) the 4 yr old has allready started draining my pocket, woman seem to be learning quicker these days! and i won't be having the opportunity of buying another TV for a good few years!

    Want to make the right decision this time round!!

    Does the original Matrix show any blurring???????????? What about Blade??????? Just thinking of some other DVD's that i have that i might be able to demo whilst there.

    Will let you know the outcome!
     
  23. dalespitfire

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    Good luck Soni. Hope you have a "PAB" free test m8 :smashin:

    PS - Give the salesman some stick from us!! :D
     
  24. Demon

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    This does remind me a little of when I first got my Tosh 51wh36 (CRT RPTV).. it is the most 'detailed' and 'revealing' set I've ever owned, and compared to the previous 46" CRT RPTV it replaced, I was immediately sickened when I watched Eastenders / Corrie on SKY.. these looked Horiible.. loads of artefacts, loads of solarisation/colour banding, etc, and a horrible 'smearing' trail left behind on panning shots..

    I have to say, I was ready to send it back.. that 'sick' feeling in the bottom of my stomach was there, and I was questioning the £1500 I'd spent on it..

    It actually turned out to be the compression artefacts coupled with Toshiba's DNR and active vision processing..
    It seems that under certain scenario's, as with all manufacturers, the Picture processing has a negative rather then a positive effect... its just down to manufacturer as to what scenario the processing can't handle..

    To reduce the issue, the following worked best
    1. Turn DNR down as low as you can get away with, this was set to '1' on my Tosh for SKY, off for DVD
    2. Adjusted the sets picture settings using AVIA/DVD Essentials.. this made the biggest change, as it turns out, some of the artefacts disappeared.. the Sets factory picture settings are just amazingly 'wrong'.. way to bright and too little contrast.. Using a THX optimiser would suffice, and this is on some film DVD's such as Toy Story2, Monsters Inc, etc.

    This just left compression artefacts. Now this means that I know the set is showing me all the detail.. even when some of it is unwanted..
    The funny thing is, after 2 weeks of just watching films/TV and accepting it, I just stopped seeing it, or ignored the odd occasion it turned up.. watching Gladiator was interesting as the juddering/graininess the director had used in places was so evident that I actually don't watch that film much anymore.. I have started buying higher quality DVD's, supabit, etc.. and when its good, OMG its good..

    When I go around comet now, and see that other manufacturers are 'smoothing' everything out (including detail) to hide all these artefacts, and have ludicrously high brightness etc (For marketing purposes), its like watching a TV through a white net curtain, all detail is gone, and its 'washed out'..

    Now with DLP or in fact any digital display (LCD/Plasma included), the biggest problem is making any SD source (SKY/Terrestrial, etc) look good.. rendering MPEG 2 on a digital display raw looks hideous. If you have a DVI TFT on your PC, try using Windows Media Player to play a DVD.. and look at the amazing amount of artefacts, this is mainly due to WMP's insistance on doing as little 'processing' as possible...
    On CRT's you have a built in 'filter' as such due to the analogue Nature that goes someway to reducing all these issues.. but even then manufacturers employ a high degree of processing to help improve things further.
    On large screen digital displays, the processing is immense to try and make a 576line picture look OK on a 720 line display..
    Unfortunately, there will be times when it 'fails' to some extent, and I am sure this is one of the major factors contributing to this 'issue' that you are all seeing.

    Now, perhaps some picture tweaking, using AVIA/DVD Essentials/THX Optimiser may reduce it, and switching DNR off/low may help, even using HDMI to cut out the Analogue to Digital conversion processing may also help.. it sounds like it from Phunt et al's attempts.. but it may take some 'ignoring' on your part, even after just a couple of weeks, I stopped 'seeing' (or maybe 'looking') for all the faults, and I just watch the thing.. I even seem to ignore Eastenders, which technically is just terrible, the compression artefacts when say in the pub, in dark scenes is terrible..

    The problem as I see it is finding a TV that suits you.. I have been looking in comet, and even demoing some of the latest TV's and plasma, as I would love the cinematic PQ of my 51" RPTV for films, with the ability to use HiDef for XBox/HD Films etc..
    I have to say, there doesn't seem to be a perfect display, and its all a little bit of a compromise

    I see that manufacturers tend to go down one of two routes
    1. Heavily smooth/process the picture to hide as many faults as possible. This I believe sets like the samung 50l7hx use.. they just generally smooth the picture to reduce the amount of artefacts. The issue here is, some pople will love the smooth rendition, others (like me) prefer to see more detail, even at the expense of seeing some odd artefacts
    2. Process the picture to reveal as much detail as possible, which when good will be OMG good, but will inevitably have times when it fails, namely on poor quality sources/scenes, when it just does the wrong thing..

    Of ocurse on top of this are limitations of the display technology, but it seems that the latest DLP/LCD and Plasma seem to have reduced these to be almost invisible..

    I personally can't stand poor black levels, I can't stand looking at 'grey' blacks, this to me is the worst thing ever.
    The next worse thing is Bad picture processing that affects the scene permanently, just look at the amount of edge tizzing on poor shop feeds, which less face it are indicative of SKY, etc, the majority of displays just can't handle a bad source. The LG DLP RPTV is one example, it has poor black levels, terrible colours, which are miles off (Orange reds, being one crime), and awful edge processing of poor quality sources, this is all to me of course, I understand to some, its actually more preferable..
    I am not a big fan of 'smoothing' processing, like Samsung, I like to see all the detail, like I prefer a bit of sharpening on my digital camera photo's..

    The other thing I've noticed is when a friend lent me some of his 'copied' DVD's, which all looked wrong on my 51" TV.. just too many artefacts.. this was obviously down to the fact that you need to compress most movies further to fit on a single layer DVDR, and this if not done using the correct software will make things worse..

    You should always go and see any TV for yourself, if you can't really see these artefacts immediately, then this may not pose a problem, sure you may go through a period where you analyse every scene, but this happens to all TV's, I guarantee when you analyse any TV for aretfacts, suddenly you find loads.. its only when you stop looking for faults, and watch the TV that its true strengths come through..

    As for the Tosh issue being a 6 segment/7 Segment issue, this is highly unlikely.. using a 6 segment wheel with HD2+ is not necessarily a bad thing..
    The reasons for using a 7 segment wheel was to extend the colour range, to allow smoother transistions from one colour to the next, to prevent banding, which was most evident in darker scenes, where graduations of dark grey to black caused severe banding. I have seen this on early DLP front projectors, and its a little annoying.
    However, it can all be done through digital processing.. you can create much smoother transisions by looking at any individual pixel, and its neighbouring ones, and averaging colour differences in such a way to remove the problem before it gets the DLP section.
    The 7 segment wheels does mean you can add a non-linearity to the colour response, the neutral density filter segment that is added does mean you get better dark scene colour graduations, but it does mean you need to process this segment carefully to not make this affect colour rendition in other ways, and can reduce pixel noise on fast panning scenes, but this isn't the effect being described by everyone..
    Its all swings and roundabouts, since 7 segments does actually have a couple of side effects, firstly like for like, Rainbows are often worse.. this initially goes against logic, but when you consider that at the same wheel speed, the time between say successive red segments being used is less on a 6 wheel, and more on a 7 wheel, and this is what causes the rainbow effect. The major factor in Rainbows is the wheel speed, and the fact there are 2 sets of colours in a wheel rotation, the faster the speed, the less rainbows appear.. simple as that.. there are differences between 6 Vs 7, but its more a manufacturers implementation that will increase/reduce rainbows.. but they will be all approximately the same for the same wheel speed..

    If it where a 7 Segment Vs 6 Segment issue, you would see it on most fast panning scenes, irrespective of source quality.. and it wouldn't give a cartoony face effect either. The cartoony face is with skintones, which are not 'dark' and it is not 'noise' as cartoony face means its missing noise, and rendered with little detail.. this is all sounding like a processing artefact of poor quality images..

    I am waiting to see the new Sagem HD45, and will think about this or the Toshiba 52" (which are being assembled this week , so expect shipments soon)..
     
  25. Elephant Man

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    Just took some pics with me cam.
     

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  26. Elephant Man

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    Some more
     

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  27. -TYN-

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    I think it does only appear on darker shades as shown in elephant mans picture, the effect only appears on the darker tones/contours/detail. I do agree that the rainbow effect gets slightly worse with a 7 segment wheel though.
    If you take alook at the link i gave i think people would agree that this is the problem we are seeing and is described as being visible on faces and shows pic etc.
    I must say that the pictures are excellent Elephant man and i think the first one gives people a good idea of the effect :thumbsup:
     
  28. chambeaj

    chambeaj
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    If thats what DLP does (looks dreadful), I think I'll stick with my SONY 36" WEGA CRT.
     
  29. Demon

    Demon
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    Those pictures truly look awful..

    If Toshiba designed it to be like that.. they are defective.. they look like the brightness is at max, and its artificially raising the whole 'gamma' of the picture until you are seeing dark detail that is not meant to be seen.. yuk!

    Look at reviews of the 52£ american version that uses the exact same light engine/processing..
    http://www.dlptvreview.com/dlptvreviews/toshibadlptv.html

    What DVD player are you using, and how is it connected, those backgrounds, especially the one with sean connery look way to 'light' and I am wondering if something is artificially boosting lumincance.. which causes that horrible banding effect... And as for that 'mega' sharpness??? is that what the Tosh does with DVD's... I don't think that's good at all.. reminds me of that cheap £30 pixellating DVD player I bought for the bedroom that makes all DVD's look like that!..

    Can anyone with a known good source take some piccies.. just to see if these are indicative of the Tosh's performance or not..

    I see one shot in the this thread from Carl that is a challenging shot, but looks much better..
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173506
     
  30. pantages

    pantages
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    There will always be people reading a given thread for the first time, no matter how long the thread has been running. If someone tires of particular thread, then they don't have to continue reading it!
     

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