1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

BluRay vs HD-DVD camps and news

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Wasabi, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    Since this department has taken over all the HDTV discussion, I thought of moving my BluRay & HD-DVD members list and news from Rasczak good thread - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139511

    I used to list all members, but its getting too large, so now I'm just trying to list the known ones and important ones.

    HD-DVD camp has definitely grown.

    http://www.bluraydisc.com/Section-13469/Index.html

    - Sony Corporation (owns Aiwa Electronics, also with Sony Pictures Entertainment arm (owns Columbia Pictures,Tri-Star Pictures, MGM (who in turn owns United Artists/Orion Pictures and the Polygram older dvd library))
    - Disney Corp (Pixar Studios,Touchstone Pictures, Buena Vista International, Miramax Pictures, Hollywood Pictures, Dimension Films)
    - News Corp (Twentieth Century Fox Film, Fox searchlight)
    - Viacom (owns Paramount Pictures & Home Entertainment, and 33% of United International Pictures)
    - Time Warner Inc(Warner Brothers, New Line Cinema, Warner Music)
    - Sony BMG Music Entertainment
    - Lions Gate Inc
    - Hitachi Ltd
    - Mitsubishi Electric Corporation, Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co Ltd (Verbatim)
    - Panasonic (Matsusita Electric)
    - Victor Company of Japan, Limited (subsidiary of Matsu)
    - Pioneer Corporation
    - Sharp Corporation
    - TDK Corporation
    - Fujitsu-Siemens
    - Yamaha Corporation
    - D&M holdings Inc (Denon&Marantz)
    - Onkyo Corporation
    - Sanyo Electric Co Ltd
    - Mitsumi Electric Co Ltd
    - Kenwood TMI Corp
    - Canon Inc
    - Fuji Photo Film Co Ltd
    - Ricoh Co Ltd
    - Konica Minolta Opto Inc
    - Alpine Electronics Inc
    - Funai Electric Co Ltd
    - TEAC Corporation
    - Toho Company Ltd
    - Toei Video Company Ltd
    - Bandai Visual Co Ltd
    - Apple Corp
    - Dell Inc.
    - Imation Corp
    - Memorex Products Inc
    - Texas Instruments Inc
    - Sun Microsystems Inc
    - Digital Theater Systems Inc
    - Dolby Laboratories Inc
    - Sigma Designs Inc
    - nVidia Corporation
    - Sdi Media America
    - Electronic Arts Inc
    - Lsi Logic Corporation
    - LG Electronics Inc
    - Samsung Electronics Co Ltd
    - Daewoo Electronics Corporation
    - BenQ Corporation
    - Lite-On It Corporation
    - Ritek Corporation
    - CMC Magnetics Corporation
    - Optodisc Technology Corporation
    - Prodisc Technology Inc
    - MediaTek Inc
    - Royal Philips Electronics
    - Thomson
    - Vivendi Universal Games
    - Ati Technologies, Inc
    - Meridian Audio Ltd
    - Universal Music
    - Zoran corporation
    - Lenovo corp



    HD-DVD camp

    Viacom (owns Paramount Pictures & Home Entertainment, and 33% of United International Pictures, now also 100% of Dreamworks)
    General Electric majority owner & Vivendi 20% of NBC-Universal which includes Universal Pictures)
    Time Warner Inc(Warner Brothers, New Line Cinema, Warner Music)
    Disney Corp (Pixar Studios,Touchstone Pictures, Buena Vista International, Miramax Pictures, Hollywood Pictures, Dimension Films)
    Weinstein Brothers
    Microsoft Corp
    Intel Corp
    Toshiba-Samsung Storage Technologies (TSST)
    NEC Corporation
    Toshiba Corporation
    Sanyo Corporation
    Fujitsu-Siemens
    Hewlett Packard Development Company
    Memory-Tech Corporation
    Verbatim (Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co Ltd)
    Hitachi Maxell Ltd
    D&M holdings Inc (Denon&Marantz)
    Alpine Electronics Inc
    Onkyo Corporation
    Bandai Visual Co Ltd
    Fuji Photo Film Co Ltd
    Kenwood Corporation
    Ricoh Company Ltd
    Funai Electric Co Ltd
    Ritek Corporation
    Acer Inc
    Konica Minolta Opto Inc
    Teac Corporation
    Sumitomo Heavy Industries Ltd
    Toho Company Ltd
    Digital Theater Systems Inc
    Dolby Laboratories Inc
    Imation Corp
    Prodisc Technology Inc
    Ritek Corporation
    Thomson
    Various Chinese electronic makers.


    Some of the majors still undecided:
    RevolutionStudios (Sony and Fox are 2 of the 5 stakeholders)
    And minor film and dvd distribution companies like image, criterion, anchor bay, newmarket, IFC.


    Wasabi
     
  2. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    Nice post Wasabi - good to see at-a-glance the state of play for format support at present. I'd question how much support from many of those companies actually matters though.

    For companies like nVidia and ATI which camp they support isn't too important - the nature of their support will be to build in codec, AACS and HDCP support into their graphics cards/components - and as all three are more-or-less the same for all three I don't think it's that important.

    Likewise Microsoft's support of HD DVD is likely to be less influential than it first appears (much as there support of DVD+RW was). Unless a HD DVD XBox arrives of course...

    Ditto disc producers - Maxell, TDK, Verbatim etc have all made it quite clear they will initially make both types of discs. Thus there impact on the format war will be negliable (although they may well cause the death of a format when one type of media ceases to be viable).

    And companies like Ulead, Intervideo and Cyberhome have little to be gained by not supporting both formats in their software solutions.

    ...so all in all (IMHO) the core battle will be decided by the movie studios because people want content. Thus studio support is:

    Columbia Pictures - BluRay
    Disney - BluRay
    Tri-Star Pictures - BluRay
    MGM - BluRay
    United Artists/Orion Pictures - BluRay
    20th Century Fox - BluRay

    Paramount Pictures - HD DVD
    United International Pictures (?) - HD DVD
    Universal Pictures - HD DVD
    Warner Brothers - HD DVD
    New Line Cinema - HD DVD

    ...very roughly 50/50 of the major studios - which (IMHO) is probably the worst situation as it means both formats are in a very strong position provided all companies maintain a single format release policy.

    Guess we'll have to see how it all plays out. Looking forward to getting my first HD DVD player in a few months though :smashin:
     
  3. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    Rasczak,

    You and me have been through this before haven't we ;p

    Yes, the studios will probably define the battle.

    Then I have news for you, although not sure how true they are.

    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050817-5218.html

    "Meanwhile, Paramount Pictures has put their HD DVD plans on hold, and NBC Universal has scaled back their release plans for the holiday."

    If Paramount would suddenly move to Bluray then it could dramatically change the scenario, however, we all know HD-DVD won't give up in the first place, and yes, I support your view that we are stuck with 2 formats for a while.

    Wasabi
     
  4. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,838
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +979



    I would love to be following your lead but the expected price and the reduction in launch titles combined with the huge question mark over the long term (maybe even short term) future has put me off:(

    I had no worries about importing my first DVD player from the US but this time around there are too many things to worry about:)
     
  5. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
  6. Goooner

    Goooner
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    31,364
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    Ratings:
    +10,322
    Me neither. I'll be waiting for the first reasonably priced player that will play both. It happened soon enough with DVD-A and SACD, so I can't see Blu Ray and HD being any different.

    Either that or wait for one to go down the pan, the way of Betamax etc...

    I honestly can't see two competing formats being viable.
     
  7. AML

    AML
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,989
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Ratings:
    +229
    Eventually somone will make a dual player. But I have a feeling that some famous makers like Denon and Pioneer might have taken sides and will only make those players.
    Too early to know.

    I think my first Blu Ray player will be a PS3. And HD DVD maybe a PC drive or if it comes out, an XBox 360 with HD DVD drive.
     
  8. dan1979

    dan1979
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    3,520
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +201
    I'm relying on a dual format PC drive coming - anything else seems too expensive and risky.
     
  9. Ultim8Fury

    Ultim8Fury
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Messages:
    45
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +0
    when denon fall on one side or the other, I'll seriously consider a purchase but I won't be jumping on this tech at launch.
     
  10. chriszzzzzz

    chriszzzzzz
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    978
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +33
    A dual player won't be far away. Most current DVD players are multi format so makes sense someone will break ranks and make a killing in the new formats...IMO for what it's worth (totally non techy) :rolleyes:
     
  11. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,838
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +979
    Both technologies are licensed, a dual format player will only happen when both camps agree to it and the likely hood of one manufacturing partner within a camp going it alone is an extreme long shot:)

    I won't be holding my breath for a dual player unless there is a dramatic shift in one of the camps and then you would consider the knives would be out and the stronger camp will want to destroy the other not share the spoils.
     
  12. AML

    AML
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,989
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Tokyo
    Ratings:
    +229
    I cant beleive they are going through with this "war",
    I would laugh my ass off if BOTH formats failed due to lack of interest from the consumer. After all DVD is good enough for most people.

    Now that people have 2 new formats to think about not to mention the need for an HDTV, most people will find it too complicated.
     
  13. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    Not being funny but that article is more about one author's perspective than an actual news report - at least as far as his comments on HD DVD are concerned. If you look at the original press release about HD DVD titles it didn't say that all would be available this year - it said they would be available somewhen during the period Winter 05 to Winter 06. Paramount, Warner, Universal are all still on track to release discs in accordance with this strategy. The bottomline, from my perspective, is that by the end of this year there will be high def titles/content on HD DVD - a decent number of which are 'worth' having. BluRay have yet to annouce a single title!

    Universal Music and Lions Gates are to big catches for BluRay - make no mistake - but as I highlighted in my posts this means the two camps are effectively equal now. The worst possible situation IMHO because it means both formats will now go on and on meaning most of us will have to buy two players - at least initially. Certainly I am working on the assumption I'll need to buy two machines high def machines over the next 12 months.

    To be honest it wouldn't surprise me - DVD-Audio and SACD have failed to grab the imagination of the public as many of them don't have the kit to enjoy the material properly. It may well be the same for high def discs - it will certainly be a small market for awhile that's for sure.
     
  14. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    The way I look at it is I'm investing around £1500 for high def content (approx. £1000 for player, £500 for titles) for each camp. By the time I have used up my title budget then hopefully it will be clearer whether the format war will go on and on or whether a winner is emerging.

    If one format looses then it's hardly wasted money - the 'obsolete' player and it's high content will still be good for 3 to 4 years. Looking at DVD I often purchase a new disc after a few years anyway (for example a Superbit release or a 'Special Edition' etc) so I am unlikely to notice any substantial change in my buying pattern if I had to replace all the titles in one format anyway. I would suggest many users here are probably the same but are just put off by the idea of it all.
     
  15. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Messages:
    7,085
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Welwyn, Herts
    Ratings:
    +825
    I still find it hard to believe that so many big companies can be so stupid as to ignore the reasons for the obvious commercial success of DVD and GSM etc, and go back to the VCR situation.

    However, is it really as bad as that? I believe the VCR problem was caused by the tapes being physically incompatible. With BR & HDDVD, I don't know enough, yet, but perhaps there's no technical reason why a player can't play both types of disc.

    I would imagine that the terms of the licensing agreements preclude that instead, but I'm sure that that situation existed with SACD & DVD-A as well. All it takes is for a few big players to straddle both camps, and the users will be able to buy the material with confidence that their players will not become obsolete.

    Then it won't matter which format wins because they will be able to co-exist side-by-side. You chose what title you want to buy, then simply buy the type of disc that studio has chosen. Everyone will have a collection of DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs.

    Only thing is, that scenario didn't really work out for SACD and DVD-A, did it?

    Nick
     
  16. mutley

    mutley
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    445
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ratings:
    +2
    Denon is on the Bluray camp...
     
  17. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    ...which doesn't necessarily mean that much. Denon have been a supporter of DVD-RAM for the last five years but none of there products support it or, at least in the UK, -VR mode.

    I should imagine that companies like Denon - which largely concentrate on high end kit for enthusiasts - will probably hold back to see which way the wind is going to blow before committing themselves to one (or both) formats. The AV heavyweights such as Sony, Panasonic and Toshiba can afford extensive R&D and massive initial losses - smaller companies cannot.
     
  18. chriszzzzzz

    chriszzzzzz
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    978
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Coventry
    Ratings:
    +33
    As a matter of interest, would a HD disc be playable in a standard DVD player, albeit not as HD?
     
  19. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    No. However so called dual discs - where a top layer is a DVD and the bottom is a HD DVD have been proposed and built into the spec. Such discs aren't going to be brilliant - the 4.7GB of the DVD layer is too small for a decent level of MPEG2 compression (although when has that ever stopped the movie studios) whilst the 15GB of HD DVD won't allow multiple lossless audio tracks (ditto above comment). JVC has developed a similar setup for BluRay.

    However a HD DVD player will be fully backward compatible with DVD and CD. The initial BluRay machines may not work with CD but probably will with DVD. This will equal itself out over the first few years as Tri-wavelength optical heads start appearing (Panasonic, JVC, LG and Philips are among the companies developing these).
     
  20. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    D&M Holdings (Denon & Marantz) are now on both camps, which doesn't mean much as Rasczak mentioned.

    The major electronics companies that produces consumer dvd players that are still exclusive to bluray camp (excluding the founding partners) are Yamaha, LG and Samsung.

    On the hddvd camp they have gained support from Onkyo.

    Wasabi
     
  21. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    By several accounts Samsung are developing an HD DVD player - not an unreasonable suggestion given their close relationship with Toshiba. A brief mention can be seen here (you'll need to scroll down) and Samsung CEO made a comment in a UK home cinema magazine (Home Cinema Choice) that the company "couldn't ignore" HD DVD.
     
  22. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    6,080
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +681
    The BluRay camp have announced an equivalent DVD compatible disc. Theirs uses 2 DVD layers, to deliver a DVD-9 equivalent (so no compromise over current DVDs), but initially only offers a single BluRay layer (but that is still 25Gb)

    This compares to the DVD-5 single layer and 2x15 Gb layers the HD-DVD/DVD hybrid disc offers?
     
  23. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    Indeed - that was the JVC development I mentioned. But the cost is what will hold that back - a DVD/HD DVD combi disc can be developed on standard plants and so will meet the $15-29 price range the HD DVD camp are aiming for.

    Given the cost of BluRay production, and the cost of licencing the technology from JVC, means it will probably be cheaper to include a dedicated single layer disc and a seperate DVD.
     
  24. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    Look at my updated list.

    on the bluray camp, onkyo corporation, zoran corporation and SANYO ELECTRIC! has joined.

    Even Sanyo is having a back up!

    Wasabi
     
  25. Rasczak

    Rasczak
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    21,218
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Argyll
    Ratings:
    +2,267
    Given the fact the studios have split 50/50 between the two formats it would be foolish for any company not to hedge their bets.

    Toshiba-Samsung Storage Technologies (TSST) is missing from the HD DVD list BTW.
     
  26. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    I've added TSST to the list, and removed on both camps the software co's as you mentioned they always support all formats.

    Wasabi
     
  27. cerebros

    cerebros
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,190
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Leicester
    Ratings:
    +11
    Don't forget that SACD and DVD-Audio formats never had a big advertising push, so aside from AV enthusiasts who frequent this and other on-line forums or read AV mags, most people will be oblvious to the existence of the formats.

    At least with Sky's planned HD service and the HD Ready logo there will be some awareness growing of what HD is, however the cost of getting a HD capable set-up will severely restrict take up IMO. I certainly don't think you're going to be talking about a similar level of market penetration as DVD has enjoyed, especially if the respective format camps can't get their act in gear and sort out a single format.
     
  28. Wasabi

    Wasabi
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,188
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    SBC (Swedish Born Chinese)/lived in UK since 96, C
    Ratings:
    +32
    I guess everyone knows now as discussions are going on on other threads, Intel and Microsoft are joining HD-DVD camp. http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050927_190208.html

    That also means that next generation Windows OS "will be build around HD-DVD, but XBOX360 won't get HD-DVD. http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-09-27

    In the financial world, analysts are saying its "positive for Toshiba but not decisive", which I also heard from my research analysts collegues yesterday (one of the top 4 US investment banks).
    http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-09-28/

    Funny, having quickly gone through imdb's news articles from August to yesterday, most studios are reporting a loss or flat 2005 so far, and most of them are saying dvd sales are the cause of fall in boxoffice sales, then the same studios are reporting dvd sales are way down, and thats because of internet and consumer saturation. This makes me believe that copy protection will definitely be a increasingly deciding factor in the choice of format.

    I also found this short news, which surprised me, "Sony is discovering surprisingly strong demand for movies being released in the UMD format, which can only be played on its PlayStation Portable device." http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-09-20

    And something that could have had an small impact on the battle of the studio camps, "Universal-Dreamworks merger falls apart"
    http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-09-28

    I'll update in my camp vs camp list on page one ;D

    Wasabi
     
  29. Dutch

    Dutch
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,592
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    North Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +279
    I'm sure big Blu-ray supporters Dell and HP will be very upset if the new Windows OS only supports HD DVD and not Blu-ray. D'oh!

    Steve
     
  30. danvitale

    danvitale
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,339
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    By The Sea
    Ratings:
    +114
    That'll be ok. They'll just keep selling XP PCs until Microsoft cave in and include BluRay support for Vista. And keeping XP will mean their PCs will be cheaper too.
     

Share This Page

Loading...