Blu-ray shootout at TLC - My experience

MeanDorris

Well-known Member
After reading through most of the original Blu-ray shootout at TLC thread (my brain is still hurting a little!) and also AV Junkie's tests, I thought I would throw my own hat in the ring...

I visited TLC's demo room yesterday to do some comparisons, I was particularly interested in comparing the Pioneer 51 against the Denon 2500 but also wanted a look at the LX91 and 3800.

The players were hooked up into a Pio LX81 amp (as this is what I have at home) and the same calibrated 60" Pio plasma as used in the original shootout.

First, a bit of background: My first experience of blu-ray was via a PS3, which I thought was great, however, having been into AV for a number of years, I had a really bad psychological issue thinking of a games machine as a high quality BD player and so always intended to go down a dedicated player route at some point.

After clocking up a number of blu-ray discs primarily bought for the kids (and I use the word "primarily" in it's loosest form) I wanted to get another player so they could watch them in another room and went for the Sony S350 with the 6 free discs offer.

Of course I had to try the 350 out for myself though first! :D

PQ wise, there wasn't really much in it, if anything I thought the colours on PS3 were a little more punchy, but I may have been imagining it.

However, sound-wise, oh my word, what a difference! Playing the last scene of the latest Indy film in both players was seriously like listening to two completely different mixes of the soundtrack.

I have assumed that this must be down to the difference in the 350 bitstreaming and the PS3's conversion to LPCM. After reading various people doubting that PQ and SQ can be any different between players in the main shootout thread I am now planning on revisiting this, but from what I remember feeling about it at the time, I'm confident I could spot the difference in a listening blind test every time.

Anyway, needless to say the 350 didn't make it into the kids room, but eventually I thought I'd better go out and get myself another stand alone player so the 350 could go where it was intended, so back at TLC...

The Pio 51 was the first to be fired up, ******** at TLC wanted me to first compare for sound differences. We used the THX demo at the start of Indy IV, which has great examples of high's, low's and steering.

******** guided me in the kind of things I should be listening out for. We then fired up the same demo on the Denon 2500. I was convinced there was quite an amazing difference in the high end detail, low end control and overall clarity.

Next up was Super Trouper from Mama Mia, again the low end control seemed much better on the Denon and there seemed to be a little more detail, especially in the high end.

However, PQ wise, I couldn't notice any difference.

Here, we switched to viewing on a JVC 750 Projector as I have a JVC HD1 at home and view my high def material on this rather than the plasma and thought it would be a closer experience.

We span a little more of Mama Mia, and then the tunnel scene from Die Hard 4. Again I couldn't notice any difference in PQ, but the perceived difference in SQ was enough to steer me towards the Denon.

As a final comparison, we also span scene 5 from Iron Man as it is a scene I am familiar with (it was one the discs/scenes I used when previously demoing the Pio LX81 against the Denon 4308).

We also ran this disc and scene on both the denon 3800 and also the Pioneer LX91. I hadn't a major intention of going for either of these models, but if either of them had given me the wow factor I would have parted with the cash.

Unlike others, I noticed no discernible difference in PQ (******** though saw an improvement immediately in the menu screen). I did notice some perceived difference in SQ between the two and personally preferred the Pio LX91.

Now, I must stress that this was in no way a thorough test with these two models, and I am willing to concede that it may be possible to discern PQ and SQ improvements by intricately examining particular scenes.

However, to justify parting with between 2.5 to 3x the cost of the 2500, it would have to have been an immediate noticeable improvement for me - and it just wasn't.

My personal take is that a good deal of the additional spend in the LX91 and 3800 goes into DAC's, Upscaling and other outputs, which is not an issue for me as I'm just bitstreaming into the LX81 and have just ordered an Oppo 983H for SD and DVDA/SACD duties (Oppo + 2800 still a few hundred cheaper than LX91 or 3800).

After getting the 2800 home I did some comparisons against the Sony 350 (which did not come off well in the original shootout review). I'd like to think there are improvements PQ wise, but I am not convinced that is just because I want there to be and am imagining it...

To compare sound I ran the same THX demo from Indy IV through both players, again I believe I could perceive a difference (however, the perception was not as much as I felt comparing against the Pio 51 @ TLC). But again am not convinced I am not imagining it.

So either:

a) The 350 has better SQ than the Pio 51
b) They are all performing exactly the same and I am imagining the differences.

I hope to convince the wife to partake in disc swapping duties to so I can conduct my own blind viewing and listening tests to help me decide.

Don't get me wrong, I am not disappointed with the Denon 2500 purchase as it is a great looking and well made bit of kit with great picture and sound (and a hopefully, yet to be proved satisfactorily to myself, improvement in PQ and SQ).

I remain, however, skeptical with regards to differences in PQ, particularly in the current top of the range players, but would quite like to be convinced otherwise.

I should state though that I am a firm believer on a couple of things that have been commented on in the original shootout thread.

Firstly, we are all different and what we see and hear has got to be different between individuals e.g. one person could genuinely notice an improvement in picture and sound which just may not be discernible to another individual.

Secondly, I believe strongly in the placebo effect and would not have trusted myself to pass subjective opinion in the manner in which the original shootout was conducted.

I know that Phil and the guys at TLC are talking about doing another, more controlled test sometime soon, which would be great and I would love to take part in.

If there are another 3 or 4 fellow av forum skeptics or interested parties that would be interested in conducting our own blind tests I would happily host at my home? I live in Barnet, North London. AV Junkie? Avi?

I still have the 350 and PS3 as well as the 2500, it would be great to conduct some blind tests against other machines (panny, samsungs et al and especially if anyone can bring along an LX91 and 3800).

It would also be great to have two screens for a side by side comparison?

If anyone is interested in doing this please let me know.

On a final note, I would like to thank ******** at TLC. The service was excellent, and although I'm sure he was disappointed that I couldn't notice any improvement in PQ on the high end machines, there was no "really?, you must be an idiot" or any coercive attempts to convince me otherwise. He genuinely seemed happy to have provided the expertise and facilities for me to make an informed decision that I was happy with.

EDIT: 28/03/09

Having lived with the player for a while now and having spent some time with an eye1 and HCFR doing my best to calibrate both the PJ and the Plasma I thought I would drop in an update of some findings.

I have done some tests between the Denon 2500 and the PS3, firstly a few scenes from good ol' Casino Royale - I had a copy in each player and switched between the two inputs on the amp and views scenes in motion as well as comparing paused images in a couple of places.

I also ran some tests using I Robot, with particular reference to the scenes and reference points used in the original shootout at TLC thread.

Conclusion, picture quality wise. Absolutely no difference that I could perceive.
 
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richard_t

Active Member
Nothing really to add to this other than i'm getting more and more impressed by the service that TLC seem to be offering.

:thumbsup:

All being well i'll be fully replacing the audio side of my system (new amp, new speakers & new subwoofer) in a few months time and i fully intend to drive down from Yorkshire and give the guys at TLC my business.
 

Bumtious

Banned
Hi Dean, glad to help.

Again shows the importance of a decent, demo.

As you state, all I want to do is get people into an informed position where they can make a decision and be confident in that decision, I dont care what anyone buys as long as they are happy, where I start having a beef is when facts are twisted and things badly portrayed, out of proportion and based on reading stuff instead of actual first hand experience of a product and actually understanding the product.

Dean, not disappointed you could not percieve any difference between certain players on the PQ front, thats your experience and expectations not mine, its whats right for you, there are a couple of other people posting their experiences and they saw it straight away. As you say the way we do it is to help and guide you, not influence you, you dictate the demo, not me.

At each stage I asked you what you saw, not me telling you what you should see just some things that you may want to look for, there are certain tell tale answers that come back that indicate to me what they are looking for and seeing and I have never posted what they are so I can can ensure that there is no placebo effect.

SDM197 saw it and heard it with his mate and we conducted blind tests for a period, blade67 brought his 350 in and saw it straight away, but as I say and I agree with you everyone is different and has levels of expectation.

You used Iron Man as a test, as I said to you we did not have that disk (I do at home) it helped you decide, but its nit one I use cuz I'm less than impressed with it as a test disk, I think the transfer is noisy and the sound is flat, you saw and heard things that you thought were good, and thats all that matters, its your dem.

As long as you are happy with your purchase, weather its a £80 dvd player a £800 player, or a full blown £8000 rig, I have done my bit.

All we want to do is help you guys try to achive the experience you want in your home. :smashin:
 
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mattg

Well-known Member
How did you get around the time lag between discs?

I was in a demo yesterday and found it hard to remember the two scenes after waiting for it to reload. I tested a 71 and 91 and could not notice twice the difference (IMO) that could justify twice the price. I think if I could have switched from one to the other and back again it would be easier.

Parents went with the 91 as they will still be using DVD's in the short term and preferred the build quality, ethernet port etc. but I think I would have been happy with a 51 or 71. Probably the ex-student in me!
 

MeanDorris

Well-known Member
Hi Steve,

I should say though that some disc problems reported on the 2500 appear not to be a myth...

I have just tried watching The Mummy 3 and the player froze up completely a few minutes in - it was not responding at all, I had to power off at the mains and then back on.

The disc then played fine but exactly the same thing happened well into the film. After it happened I did a quick search on the forum and it appears that a number of the people have suffered identical problems with this disc and a couple of other titles (The Hulk and Wanted).

How do I check what the current firmware is on the player? It seems that an update may cure some of the problems reported but some people seem to still be having problems even with the latest firmware.

Do you have the latest firmware at your demo centre? Not sure if the players serial number will be already registered on the Denon support site.

Maybe you could raise the issue with your Denon rep, I assume by the amount of kit that you shift your comments should carry a bit of weight?
 

MeanDorris

Well-known Member
How did you get around the time lag between discs?

Hi mattg,

I didn't really, which is one of the reasons I took my own copy of Iron Man along as that particular scene I was very familiar with.

Personally, I seem to be able to recall differences in sound between swapping machines fairly easily. Maybe it's harder to do image wise.

As I said, if I spent more time comparing against the higher end players I may well have noticed improvements, however, for me to justify the substantial leap in price I didn't want to have to examine in more detail, I wanted it to be obvious.

I'm sure your folks will be happy with the 91.
 

Stuart

Distinguished Member
Good report. :thumbsup:

And thanks again to TLC for providing the facility to do this :smashin:

Also, thanks for the invite which I would gladly accept :)

I could bring along my Popcorn Hour network media player for comparison :smashin:
 

JonStatt

Well-known Member
I would have expected any differences to really show up using a projector like the HD750. I have an HD1, and find it is very revealing of bad sources (player or disc).

I know this is off track, but how did you find the HD750 in comparison to the HD1? Some are saying its a huge difference, and others are saying its an evolutionary step but certainly not a huge one (and not worthy of an upgrade for this generation). The HD1 was most definitely revolutionary at the time it was released.



Also, like I have said before...there are most definitely differences with some players in the post processing. It is just a question of whether the disc you use highlights it or not and whether those differences can be seen by your eyes/brain etc. The one thing I really like on the Sony 5000...that you can switch some of it on and off in real-time on the player. So you can actually see the changes happening to the image without any delay/pauses/black-outs. But at least with the SOny this makes it 100% undeniable that the picture is changing.



When people demo, they should use their own materials, but they should also use "reference" materials that people have found a difference with to see if they can see it for themselves. You should be locating scenes with lots of shadow detail, fast moving pans, landscape scenes...and they need to be clean...Do not use very grainy discs otherwise it makes subtle detail hard to evaluate. Just as an example, Barak has a beautiful mountain scene near the beginning of the film. Switch the HD reality enhancer to +1 or higher and you immediately notice a difference in detail on the snowy mountains.

And finally I do not recommend a demo with Shrek or Wall-E. These discs always look very impressive, partly because they tend to exaggerate colours and look punchy...but also because they are so clean as a master source, they compress better. It is not a challenge for the player at all. It is also not a challenge for the display device because detail lost in scaling etc is covered up...as an animation never has as much detail as a real life film....crisp lines which appear sharp and vivid...but not as many pores on the skin, or hairs on the head. I am sure you have noticed a lot of Sony Centres and other stores using these discs as demos for a TV.....watch out!



We are all different. We all see things differently. We all hear things differently. And no doubt, psychological influences and effects are really difficult to eliminate (e.g. everyone has told me there will be a difference so I must be able to see/hear it). I am convinced that although there are differences, they are much smaller than the differences between DVD players. I also think that aside from the pure digital signal chain, this shows that HD as a resolution is sufficiently close to the limit of most people's eyes. Of course, uncompressed HD would be a great next step. But we know we are heading towards Ultra HD and doubling the resolution again...I think we will all be rushing out for laser eye surgery to be able to see the differences!
 
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nobby

Active Member
hi folks

currently i have a denon 2500 on short term loan prior to making my mind up if i am going to purchase or not. i currently have a ps3 running on my current set up (see sig below) and i must admit on running on this kit i definitely see a major step up on picture improvement with the denon ...

the picture has taken on a whole new level of detail, whether this is down to the extra processing from the lumagen scaler i have, i do not know but if it is, then both devices work extremely well with each other. I have noticed a sufficient increase in the overall detail in picture and the colours are more vibrant than normal. on the ps3 on comparison the colours are not there and there is a lack of depth almost wash out compared to the denon 2500. you definitely notice the increase on PQ with a big screen, i certainly did.

as for sound, well i was under no illusion that i was missing out on that purely because of the ps3 issues ... the yammy 3800 paired with the denon has made a massive improvement on the sound ... everything is alot clearer there is a meatier low end, not muffled as before and there is an instant clarity and raise in volume level on certain discs ... so in terms of sound the denon wins hands down on that side of things... so make sure you have a decent amp to make avial of the sound improvements

needless to say i am in no doubt that i will upgrade from the ps3 as soon as stock is available with my local retailer

i have read with interest all the views on this player in terms of 'improvement' ... i definitely see a marked improvement on the ps3 and with the current price levels of the denon 2500 its a no brainer for me; may have been an issue if prices were at the original RRP!

as stated perhaps the pairing with my lumagen scaler has improved things for me and perhaps i am on the same level as what you 'might expect' on the 3800 with the extra processing abilities i have ...

the key thing is if you can get a demo that is as close to your existing set up or can even get an opportunity to loan or borrow one for a short period i suggest you do ... i know this is difficult but its the only way to be sure

just my experiences so far with the 2500

regards
 

kingfats

Distinguished Member
the key thing is if you can get a demo that is as close to your existing set up or can even get an opportunity to loan or borrow one for a short period i suggest you do ... i know this is difficult but its the only way to be sure

just my experiences so far with the 2500

regards

Hi nobby. :)
Got to be the best advice really :smashin: because there's some many different opinions being posted lately from seeing no difference to a big difference,all feedback is great but in the end you've got to find out for yourself.
By the way,have you had a chance to check out what the Denons like for DVD playback at all mate?
All the best.
 

MeanDorris

Well-known Member
I would have expected any differences to really show up using a projector like the HD750. I have an HD1, and find it is very revealing of bad sources (player or disc).

I know this is off track, but how did you find the HD750 in comparison to the HD1? Some are saying its a huge difference, and others are saying its an evolutionary step but certainly not a huge one (and not worthy of an upgrade for this generation). The HD1 was most definitely revolutionary at the time it was released.

Hi JonStatt,

The image on the HD750 was excellent - in fact I was amazed how close the PQ looked compared to the 60" Plasma which I viewed the same scene on just before - I suspect part of this was down to calibration though.

However, I am really happy with my HD1 at home, the picture amazes me every time I watch something (I previously owned an SD Infocus DLP model, the HD1 is not even playing the same game let alone being in a different league!).

But, I really wouldn't like to stick my neck out unless I saw the HD1 directly against the 750, but my gut feelings is for me that there would not be enough of a difference to justify the outlay, but I may be wrong... I may be tempted to see a direct comparison at some point.

There was another forum member (don't remember who but there is a post on here somewhere) who went to TLC and demoed the 350 against the 750. The PJ's are mounted side by side and ******** told me that he fed the same source and held cards over each PJ in turn so a real comparison could be made. I understand the guy could see a difference between the two models but went for the 350 as the difference didn't justify the extra 2K in his opinion.
 

Bumtious

Banned
Jon

The thread concerned is here

The thing thats interesting here is that where the chap could see the difference between the projectors he could not justify it. With the blue ray players, he cagain could see the difference and could justify the difference.

Detecting differences in kit (any kit) is down to the individual, some people see it easily, some dont what I can tell you is there are differences.

Only you can decide if you can see it and if its worth it, but just because you cant see it DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT THERE.

From the 6 people booked in for demos last Saturday plus the walk ins I can tell you that all but 1 purchased units and the one that did not will cuz its part of a large system.

Out of all those visitors all but one saw the difference in picture between the players.

Some compared 51 to 2500 some 71 to 2500 some the 2500, 91 and 3800 one was the Sony 350 to the 2500 and two the PS3 to the 51.

With the units they wished to compare all, with the exception of our OP here went for the higher spec unit in their demo.

I conclude from seeing this day in and day out that there is a decernable difference, we have seen it from the shhotout hers and the results in a mag shootout.

What we actually have is a small (half a dozen or so) number of sceptics, and the comments I get time and time again is why are these guys so sceptical, to me its obvious.

You need to get out and see and hear for yourself. You cant believe everything you read, and that message is now getting across.
 

nobby

Active Member
hi mate

the opinions on these forums alone can either make u purchase or put you off even looking at it :eek: ... as stated i was fortunate to get a loaner and in my opinion it is definitely a step up on the PS3 ... FACT (based on my equipment). my wife even noticed a difference and most of the time she cannot see anything! :rolleyes:

frrom a personal perspective, i think the kit you have will have effects on the player specifically due to it being only a 'transport'. and i would like to think with the investment i made on the lumagen radiance that it was working in a positive way with the denon as well ... perhaps this is why i have seen better results than others

in terms of playback on SD DVD, in my opinion the results are varied ... a good mastered DVD comes up very well on the player, but rubbish still looks rubbish. i can safely say that performance wise it would not be any worse than my oppo player... again based on what my equip does for me. i would say its capable of providing a decent image with sd material if it is a decent transfer to begin with

yes the majority of my collection is still on SD, but i have to admit i am looking at kit to get the best from HD and in MY opinion the 2500 is extremely capable of doing this and it is better than the PS3.

yes i could hold out for the oppo and God knows what else that is being fired out by manufacturers at the mo/future. but this is consumer elecs ... if you went on the principal of waiting all the time you would never buy anything, but i can state clearly that i believe there is a benefit in purchasing the denon especially at the price deals at the mo

Hi nobby. :)
Got to be the best advice really :smashin: because there's some many different opinions being posted lately from seeing no difference to a big difference,all feedback is great but in the end you've got to find out for yourself.
By the way,have you had a chance to check out what the Denons like for DVD playback at all mate?
All the best.
 

nobby

Active Member
Jon
Detecting differences in kit (any kit) is down to the individual, some people see it easily, some dont what I can tell you is there are differences.

Only you can decide if you can see it and if its worth it, but just because you cant see it DOES NOT MEAN ITS NOT THERE.

I conclude from seeing this day in and day out that there is a decernable difference, we have seen it from the shhotout hers and the results in a mag shootout.

What we actually have is a small (half a dozen or so) number of sceptics, and the comments I get time and time again is why are these guys so sceptical, to me its obvious.

You need to get out and see and hear for yourself. You cant believe everything you read, and that message is now getting across.

I totally agree with you on what you wrote here. :thumbsup:

if i saw no difference when i loaned the player, it would have been straight back and money refunded! £600 is a BIG investment for anyone and you want results. :lesson: The 2500 is a considerable step up from the PS3 on MY equipment, and i am very keen to purchase :smashin:

There are always people going to say its not good enough just to create controversey etc etc. you need to see things yourself its the only way.

these forums are great but at times there is so much rubbish posted that you have to wade through :suicide:; but when there are decent posts they make interesting reading and then you go find out about it/or get opinions from others that you TRUST.

but demoing as close to what you have at home is a massive factor.:lesson: i appreciate that not all shops can accomodate this, but with sufficient notice and stuff (and i am sure TLC would agree) they would do their best to accomodate in order to give you some idea.
 

kingfats

Distinguished Member
in terms of playback on SD DVD, in my opinion the results are varied ... a good mastered DVD comes up very well on the player, but rubbish still looks rubbish. i can safely say that performance wise it would not be any worse than my oppo player... again based on what my equip does for me. i would say its capable of providing a decent image with sd material if it is a decent transfer to begin with

yes the majority of my collection is still on SD, but i have to admit i am looking at kit to get the best from HD and in MY opinion the 2500 is extremely capable of doing this and it is better than the PS3.

Cheers for your replying and your feedback nobby :thumbsup: take care mate.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
the picture has taken on a whole new level of detail, whether this is down to the extra processing from the lumagen scaler i have, i do not know but if it is, then both devices work extremely well with each other. I have noticed a sufficient increase in the overall detail in picture and the colours are more vibrant than normal. on the ps3 on comparison the colours are not there and there is a lack of depth almost wash out compared to the denon 2500. you definitely notice the increase on PQ with a big screen, i certainly did.

Thanks for the feedback.

How was the Radiance calibrated for each player out of interest ?

AVI
 

Bumtious

Banned
I totally agree with you on what you wrote here. :thumbsup:

if i saw no difference when i loaned the player, it would have been straight back and money refunded! £600 is a BIG investment for anyone and you want results. :lesson: The 2500 is a considerable step up from the PS3 on MY equipment, and i am very keen to purchase :smashin:

There are always people going to say its not good enough just to create controversey etc etc. you need to see things yourself its the only way.

these forums are great but at times there is so much rubbish posted that you have to wade through :suicide:; but when there are decent posts they make interesting reading and then you go find out about it/or get opinions from others that you TRUST.

but demoing as close to what you have at home is a massive factor.:lesson: i appreciate that not all shops can accomodate this, but with sufficient notice and stuff (and i am sure TLC would agree) they would do their best to accomodate in order to give you some idea.

I agree especially the middle part.

As for the last part, this is a difficult one, what we have done is put together a room and system that is capable of showing the units to their full potential.

What it DOES show is the shortcomings of the budget units, and it shows it clearly, it also lets the finer points of the more expensive units shine through.

A car will get you from a-b, a smart car with a 1L engine will do that, a BMW 530 will get you from a-b. Now put that 1L engine into the BMW and it will get you from a-b, but will struggle in the BMs body, the 3L engine in the smart car will be an overkill and you would probably struggle to control it, or you would drive and a third of its potential power so it would be a waste.

Same with these BD players, you need to match them to suit your display and the kit around it a Sony 350 will be fine on a 32/37" lcd but it struggles on a 60" plasma.
 

nobby

Active Member
Thanks for the feedback.

How was the Radiance calibrated for each player out of interest ?

AVI

Hi AVI

i have done no calibration on the lumagen with regards to the denon.

All settings have been setup by Gordon Fraser when he done the initial install/calibration with my equipment. Until I request Gordon's services again i will simply be making do with what settings are currently there as I don't really like messing with scaler settings.

but i can honestly say with the settings as they are, there is considerable improvement on PQ. When i get my new equipment installed over the course of this year and Gordon has re-done his wizard tricks ... no doubt i will have a better image again
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Hi AVI

i have done no calibration on the lumagen with regards to the denon.

All settings have been setup by Gordon Fraser when he done the initial install/calibration with my equipment. Until I request Gordon's services again i will simply be making do with what settings are currently there as I don't really like messing with scaler settings.

but i can honestly say with the settings as they are, there is considerable improvement on PQ. When i get my new equipment installed over the course of this year and Gordon has re-done his wizard tricks ... no doubt i will have a better image again

Hi Nobby

Thanks for the reply.

I'm a long time Lumagen user myself and Gordon is a top man. I also use the Radiance and some of your feedback about colour etc set my calibration alarm bells ringing. If both players are calibrated to the same standard you shouldn't see a noticeable difference in colour or other key areas. The interesting question is which more accurate with regard to standards (if either) and which is subjectively more pleasing ?

I tested a 2500 in my setup but reached a different conclusion on PQ utilising the Radiance. I found the 2500 image looked different but the difference appeared due to a higher default level of image enhancement. I found increasing the Radiance 6 x sharpness/texture setting all to around 2 or 3 on the PS3 input produced a similar image "look" using a PS3 as a transport. That's said I display chain calibrated each source using the Radiance and my projector is also different to yours so this could abe a contributing factor to what we observe.

It's aways interesting to read feedback. :)

AVI
 
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