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Blu-Ray / HD-DVD Battleground

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by digisocialist, Dec 11, 2004.

  1. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    'Look away now if you have just spent £150 on the latest DVD recorder for Christmas'...says The Sunday Times (13th December).

    Excerpts...

    Next generation High Definition DVD's is the battleground. Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD.

    Blu-Ray disc players are currently on sale in Japan for about £1,500. Besides the major Hollywood Studios, Phillips, Mitsubishi and Hitatchi have endorsed the Sony led format; though Tosh, four other leading Hollywood Studios (Paramount, Universal, Warner, New Line) have agreed to sell on the HD-DVD format. Sony however is to also use Blu-Ray as standard in the PS3 and has also forged an alliance with DELL and HP in appropriation of the Blu-Ray format.

    OK - I was literally about to hit the 'BUY' button on the Denon 2910. I had just had a conversation with the wife telling her the benefits of a £500 DVD player (which she frankly thought was ludicrous) and having just tipped the balance in my favour (it was the fact that it plays multi-region that got her as that's pretty much all she wants to know); she then pipes up having read the Sunday Times article and blew me out of the water (seriously embarrased) :blush:

    So.... am I seriously waisting £500 on a DVD player if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is coming soon (I want this player to last a few years) OR do I juts have to live with it? Finally, any good selling points for me to convince the wife would be helpful too :smashin:
     
  2. Jules

    Jules
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    I'd holding off any DVD player upgrade for now.

    I saw Blu-Ray at the Manchester show in October, and I know I have to have it. Any upgrade now would be very short lived. HD is a different ball game altogether than low / mid priced DVD players.

    Anyway, my brothers ancient Toshiba 2109 (worth about £50) is nothing like the 50 times more inferior than the price of my £2500 Denon DVD-A1 would suggest.
    In fact, on a normal TV you can hardly tell the difference.

    Sure, on a decent projector the differences become more obvious, but honestly.... I think I wasted my money on the Denon.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure I could live with a £100 DVD player know, but then I've had my A1 for about 2 years.
    Things are very different now, and I'd wait a while!
     
  3. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    Jules - Thanks for that. I suppose I'm in a slightly different predicament.

    1 - I have no DVD Player at all.

    2 - I have no CD Player at all.

    I have to buy a DVD player anyway otherwise all those DVD's we will no doubt get for x-mas will sit on the shelf! I suppose I'm reluctant to buy a £50 DVD player (I did recently and it broke in a month). My wife's view is, buy 10 cheap players for the same price as the Denon... I know it juts doesn't work like this...

    I suppose the obvious question is, when in reality is Blu-Ray or HD-DVD going to hit high street and make this a viable option. If it's 2 years then I have no issue spending £500 on a DVD player... if it were to be 6 months, then this is a different matter.
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi,

    HD DVD and Blu-ray won't be available in Europe until at least early 2006, so it should be worth buying something like a Pioneer 470 for around £100 to see you through until then.

    Steve
     
  5. inzaman

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    If i was buying a dvd player now i would probably get something like the pio for £100 as well. You can then save the remaining funds to put towards a blu ray or hd dvd player.
     
  6. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    OMG :eek: Being like most men I'm more likely to see this as an opportunity to spend more on an AV now than save what I would save by not buying a decent DVD player until 2006.

    Still confusing. My options now seem to be (assuming £1200 for AV & DVD)
    Buy AVR3805 + DVD2910 from Unbeatable for £1200
    OR
    Don't buy the 2910 and get a £100 DVD player... which might actually for the 1st time in my life put me into the 'High End' market... and put me in with a chance of getting an Arcam AV (or similar)!! (Though whether the DV300 for example is as good as the 3805 I really couldn't say).

    It's also been noted several times that your source has to be pretty good. It might be a bit mad to stick a £100 DVD player onto a £1000+ AV.. I' probably being an optomist anyway as it's unlikely I could get the Arcam for £1000 to leave me with money for a budget DVD. If only Arcam broke the 1K bracket!

    This get's harder by the day.
     
  7. oxygenuk

    oxygenuk
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    Just buy a dvd playuer £70 - 100 for now because in a few years they will be like vhs is at the moment, well maybe not quite but i hope you catch what im mtrying to say ;)
     
  8. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    I do.. I do..! But am I realistically going to get an Arcam AV for £1000? I suppose this is off topic and belongs in the AV thread.

    Still, waiting for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray players to be released in 2006 still doesn't mean they're going to be affordable. I can see now the hype '1st Blu-Ray enabled disc... have yours now for only £1,500!'...

    What do we all do with our current DVD collections also... surely there'd still be a market for decent DVD players for existing DVD's. It's interesting because whilst I understand the anology to be made with the VHS/Beetamax war and now the almost redundant VCR; Vinly on the other hand didn't entirley follow the same fate when CD won market share. Quality turntables are still sought after and manufactured/crafted more than ever! I'll never get rid of my Vinyl.

    I'm dizzy.
     
  9. Seth Gecko

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    Really cynical viewpoint is this..........

    I love computers (it'll make sense in a sec) and obviously want the latest and greatest. I recently blew my graphics card up so I got a Nvidia 5900. Knowing full well that in a months time it's outdated. Do I buy the 5900 and wait a month, knowing full well that in a months time something better will be announced. BUT surely if I wait 3 months something even BETTER will be out and so on and so on.

    DVD has been around ages and the catalogue is huge - but if BluRay and all come out in 2006, it will take years for the catalogue of software to grow. Seeing as technology is a horrible beast that evolves too damn quickly for it's own good, in 2008 there will be something else, then something else again and so on and so on.

    Ok maybe i'll get flamed - But then people I know think they should get an Xbox but then go "Ahh but in a years time or so, the Xbox 2 will be out". That as maybe but I'd rather have something NOW and in time upgrade or supplement my existing player/console/whatever with the next big thing. I recently got a Denon 3910 KNOWING full well that BluRay was coming "soon". I also know full well that i've got 1500 or so DVD's that I want to still watch. I'm happy having spent the cash on the Denon and when the format war for the new 2 formats start and slowly show signs of a winner, I'll get a player too. Hell I may get both anyway cos I love technology. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to enjoy what I can right now JUST because something else is coming :)
     
  10. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    Sadmuppet.. you present well the reality and it is a fair point. I too am the same way with PC. I recently built an Mini-ITX based machine on the VIA Nehemiah MII, knowing full well it was going to be soon outdated.. and Nano is on it's way... plus it didn't really turn out as I had planned (starting point HTPC...end point Mini-ITX with no reall competative MM functionality :eek:

    At the end of the day I want the best of every world (don't we all) and I do need a decent enough DVD player to make use of the AV, good surround and to play my CD's on.... I suppose I need to prepare the wife (that's the main obstacle)
     
  11. nemo

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    Don't think your view is cynical but realistic, Totally agree with you.
     
  12. inzaman

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    Sadmuppet, you make some valid points.

    I am glad that i am not in the market for a dvd player, Digisocialist why dont you go the hcpc route?

    Also regarding the amp , personally i would go the cheaper dvd player and get the more expensive amp. I brought an expensive amp two years ago and it is the one thing i have not had the urge to upgrade.
     
  13. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    Inzaman - a man after my own heart. It's tricky... I'm in that vicous circle. A few months ago when I 1st came on these forums I started off looking at £200 budget for an AV and a DVD was never in the equasion... the more you read the more you are lured!!! :eek:

    Now I recognise that you have to spend money to get something half decent (and this is no disrespect to anyone wishing to purchase a £200 AV, afterall even the 3805 is mid range and possibly 'budget' to many on these forums - it's just imo)... I do really like the 3805 (have demo'd the 2805 and thought brilliant) but have since thought going to the 1K barrier is a significant step in the direction I would like to go.. (have friends with Cyrus & Naim CD players and realise the difference.. I'm currently using a £10 Aiwa portable!) So, the dream of hitting that is tantilisingly close but also just a bit too far.

    I've thought of this another way. Settle on a proven combo i.e. 3805 + 2910 (which I have researched well, demo'd and liked, plus will be plenty big enough for the Castle speakers) and accept the upgrade game as and when needed.... this afterall is a reality in most area's of life.
     
  14. John-D

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    I bought a 2910 last month, and i love it. Doubt i'll buy HD-DVD/Blu-ray player until at least a year, maybe two years, into its run.

    Dunno if you read on Digi-Tele Text (BBC), that Tosh are bringing out an HD-DVD disc that can play on both normal DVD and HD-DVD players.

    Now that's the way to go. Still using your old player till you get a new one, but then the new disc's you have bought will also show HD-DVD on your new HD player.

    Beats Blu-ray any day. :thumbsup:
     
  15. Rob20

    Rob20
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    Just 1 question. How the hell do you find time to watch 1,500 dvds? If you watched 1 a day it'd take 4-5 years to watch every one! :eek: :)
     
  16. Rob20

    Rob20
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    But the thing about the hybrid disc (I think) is that you're limited to a single layer for HD-DVD content, or just 15MB. Dual layer standard HD-DVD dissc are 30GB, and dual layer Blu-Ray 54GB. With quad layer 100GB BRay discs proposed for 2007, and 8 layer 200GB in development, it would seem to me that Blu-Ray is infact the better proposition. :)
     
  17. digisocialist

    digisocialist
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    Think thats bad, I knew a guy at my last work place who had in excess of 10,000 LPs. His wife left him and his 3 bed house was mainly filled in every room to the ceiling with boxes of records. He often said that he simply could not fit in listening to half of the LPs he had in the time he had left to live (which was a rather sobering and slightly morbid thought). I offered to take some off his hands for free :) like all the original Beatles, Bowie, Floyd, Hendrix records he had several duplicate copies of! But he was too obsessed. :eek:
     
  18. Seth Gecko

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    It's kinda easy - I bought my first DVD player when they came out in US waaaaaaaaay long ago and have been collecting DVD's ever since. I probably had a player about a year? before they came out over here.

    I'm trying to recall exactly when I got my DVD player - 8 or 9 years ago I believe. I was still buying Laserdiscs at the time as well !
     
  19. Rob20

    Rob20
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    Sorry. What I was thinking was when were you gonna watch them again. Starting from today it would take 4-5 years to rewatch every disc at one a day. You must have £20,000 worth of dvd's. Do you still buy new dvd's. I have 150 and have come to the conclusion that in the last year or so I've been buying a lot of dvds that get watched once than put on the shelf. Personally I'm thinking of joining one of those online unlimited dvd rental places for £10-15 a month. I've worked out I could easily watch 10 dvds a month. £15 a big saving on the £150 it would most likely cost me. I think in the past I've been collecting dvds almost for the sake of it. :rolleyes:
     
  20. MartinImber

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    BluRay & HD-DVD

    Blu Ray soulds like an upgrade to HD-DVD so why bother with the intermediate format!
     
  21. Seth Gecko

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    Apologies for going off the tangent - Yes I still buy new DVD's and I still watch some of the oldies (Se7en gets a work out every few months). I also rent from Blockbusters (online) for the movies that pique curiosity.

    However - as and when BluRay or the next big format comes out - sure I'll upgrade SOME of the DVD's to the newer format (and no, LOTR and Star Wars aren't even on the list !!!) but I'll be happy with the DVD's that I have now - bearing in mind that I can't see how anything other than picture quality will improve. I'm already viewing via HDMI output so I'm happy enough to watch say, Murder One or Finding Nemo as they are - the transfer (for Nemo) is pretty damn good.
     
  22. Lepton

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    Some time ago, I read that Blu-Ray DVDs and HD-DVDs are too sensitive (like the DVD is more sensitive than the CD) so they will come in a cartridge. If that's true, it means that the respective players will be incompatible with DVD's, so it makes perfect sense to buy a DVD player and a good one at that. Can anyone verify the above?
     
  23. expat

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    Digisocialist,

    What kind of TV or display do you have? What kind of inputs does it allow? You need to take the capabilities and limits of your display into account when deciding on a DVD player. Unless, of course, you're planning to upgrade your display anytime soon...
     
  24. vonhosen

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    Blu-Ray etc may well be in a cartridge but that shouldn't stop legacy playback. After all Panasonic players can play DVD-RAM in a cartridge & DVD-Video discs out of one. The cartrdige is just to make the discs less prone to dirt when being handled.

    Personally I think they would be silly not to have DVD-Video playback.
     
  25. Lepton

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    Ok, disregard that. It seems that TDK has made a coating that is good enough to eliminate the need for a cartridge (at least for the Blu-ray). Sorry...
     
  26. richjthorpe

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    Just want to go back to the original arguement of whether to spend £500 now on a 2910 or wait for Blur-Ray/HD-DVD.

    Thinking of it this way, and it's already been said, when Blu-Ray/HD-DVD machines enter the frey, they will be very expensive to Joe Publico and it would take a couple of years in order for the costs to lower. By this time, some major company will have made a machine that plays both formats which is better for everyone but this again will be too expensive and will take another year for the price to drop. Given this, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD will be affordable in 2009 !

    Then there is the matter of the discs themselves. How much were DVDs in the UK when they first started selling ? £25-£30 ?! I think this will be the mark for the new discs. I know that HD-DVD discs already exist so costs may be cheaper but knowing UK selling tac-tics, they'll bunk the price up no end.

    My opinion would be to buy a DVD player now. Which one depends on how bad you want Blu-Ray/HD-DVD. If you are the kind of 'Must have' person, get a cheapish DVD player for now and upgrade to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD when it comes around. If, like me, you don't want to start with the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD until prices come into a less wince inducing price, then buy a decent DVD player now that will last a fair few years.

    Either way, I think the Denon 1910 that upscales to 720/1080 would be a great choice for either person for £200 ! Cheap enough when compared to £1500 worth of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD kit and good enough for the other when compared to cheap DVD players (£60) at the moment.

    By the way, is there any way of shortening Blu-Ray/HD-DVD ? The B,L,U,-,/,H,D and V keys are wearing out on my keyboard !! :)

    Richie.
     
  27. ahin4114

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    I've also heard about this new coating, so that should eliminate the cartridges. I used to use those with early CD drives and they were a real pain. I've also read that many of the Blu-Ray decks are incorporating dual pickups so you should be able to play back normal DVD on them as well.

    I know it's been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but in order to get any benefit out of these new decks you're going to have to have Hi-def compatible sets. This is turning in to an expensive hobby :)
     
  28. digisocialist

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    Expat - I own a Sony KLVL23M1 which has SCART, Component, S-Vid & Composite connections. I am therefore limited to what output I can use, unless of course I upgrade as you say, though that is not likely for a while. I wanted the 2910 because it supports HDMI and I do wish to build in some aspect of future proofing. That said, I only have S-Vid cabled to the TV point in my Cinema room so can't even go progressive (I think). I will however be getting a PJ next year and could use HDMI-DVI or HDMI-HDMI if a PJ at a suitable price is available with this connectivity. Again however, I would need to install a HDMI cable as I currently have belden Component cabled to the PJ point.

    richjthorpe - The 1910 is an interesting proposition as it only lacks HDMI which is the main reason I wanted the 2910, though this is not something I can make use of now anyway. However I have read the 1910 is fairly bog standard on analogue output, so a step up to the 2910 may improve the output quality (2910 has dual 12bit/216MHzD/A converters vs 1910 54MHz)....and as I'm also after good audio as I'll be doubling up to play CD's on it (can't afford a seperate CD player just yet), this positions the 2910 better. I noted the Samsung HD945 is very reasonably priced and supports HDMI, though if I'm completely honest I think I may be a brand snob and have reservations about mass market brand names ) plus I don't know it's full spec and have no confidence in it's competativeness for audio say vs the Denon.....

    Ultimately I am torn between worlds. I am a bit of a traditionalist at heart and ideally would love to stay ANALOGUE (we are good at analogue in the UK)..and if I had my way I would be spending serious cash on a better turntable and analogue amplifcation as audio is important. BUT as I also recognise that I can't escape digital (and that's no bad thing) as I do want Movie entertainment and do find CD's convienient, I have to compromise and buy products for the digital world; herein lies my conflict... if I do have to go digital (and I do) then I want the best I can get for my money. Faithful digital reproduction is a must and I don't wish to compromise something which Philosophically is already a compromise... i.e the digital world. I digress. The reality of course is that I need a DVD player (and WANT a DVD player) now!

    :)
     
  29. richjthorpe

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    Hmmmmm. But if you buy a 2910 for D/A converters then after a year start using the HDMI connection, you've just forked out more than you need to on technology that is no longer needed (Am I right saying you don't need the D/A converters when using HDMI ?)

    Another thing, the 1910 has HDCP compliant DVI which is HDMI without sound in essence. When you connect your DVD player to the PJ when you buy it, the sound will still have to be routed through an AV receiver. With the £300 you save you can buy a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C CD player (£250) and decent interconnects. If you still don't want the 1910, go for something like a Pioneer 470 (£100) using the components and wait until next year when high quality DVD players with HDMI drop in price and you're ready to get a PJ. But then do you upgrade next year or wait a year for when Blu-Ray/HD-DVD comes out.....choices choices !

    Only a suggestion mind :)

    Richie.
     
  30. digisocialist

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    Some really good points, especially as I am not completely clear on the whole digital proposition. If it's true that I can get an equally good PQ via DVI, then this is more interesting as the PJ I'm looking at currently is the 4805 which only supports DVI anyway. I suppose the whole HDMI thing is in the equasion because I don't wish to feel I've missed a trick... though it is very unlikely 'll be able to use it. I do have a question about the D/A conversion. If I buy the 3805, will it's D/A conversion take precedence and therefore render the conversion on the DVD redundant (unless bypassing the AV). If so, again I don't really need decent D/A conversion on the DVD.

    I know this is off topic also, but I would love someone to explain how progressive works. As you say the 1910 will outpt 720p/1080i via DVI which is the same as the HDMI offering on the 2910... so nothing lost there. The more I look at this logically the more the argument stacks up that getting a lower spec DVD like the 1910 isn't going to be a great loss (in my current situation).

    As for Blu-ray, I imagine affordability is not likely until at least 2007. By which time I'll probably be pontificating my seventh upgrade and then worrying about whether to go Blu-Ray (even at a 1k pricepoint) vs some intermediate technology like HSDMI2!
     

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