Bk Xls200 Df

handman

Standard Member
i WAS LOOKING FOR A NEW SUB WHEN i CAME ACROSS YOUR FORUM. i NEEDED SOMETHING SMALL TO FIT IN WITH MY NEW ROOM, THAT COULD PROVIDE ME WITH REASONABLE DEPTH AND MUSICALITY. AFTER READING MANY GOOD REVIEWS OF THE BK XLS200 ON THIS FORUM I DECIDED TO BUY ONE BLIND (NOT A WISE MOVE IN RETROSPECT). WHEN I RECEIVED THE SUB I WAS VERY EXCITED BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO BE WELL MADE AND FINISHED BUT THAT IS WHERE MY EXCITEMENT ENDED! UPON CONNECTING IT UP - HIGH AND LOW LEVEL CONNECTIONS - IT SEEMED TO BE FINE FOR PLAYING MOVIES VIA THE LOW LEVEL CONNECTION BUT PLAYING MUSIC USING THE HIGH LEVEL CONNECTION, WHICH WAS REALLY MY PRIMARY CONCERN, IT WAS ABSOLUTELY USELESS - INADEQUATE FILTERING AND LIMITED POWER WHEN USING THE HIGH LEVEL CONNECTION. I CONTACTED BK ELECTRONICS AND EXPLAINED TO THEM THAT THE SUB SEEMED TO HAVE LESS OUTPUT THAN MY PREVIOUS REL QUARKE, THEY DULY REPLACED THE AMPLIFIED MODULE BUT THAT SEEMED TO MAKE NO DIFFERENCE. SO IN CONCLUSION, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A HOME CINEMA SUB ONLY, ITS FINE, HOWEVER IF YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH PLAYING MUSIC LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE.
 

Violator

Well-known Member
Firstly, welcome to AV Forums. Secondly, if you don't mind, please turn off the CAPS. Third, why not tell us a little bit about your setup, what you were testing with, and how it doesn't live up to your expectations.

I have an XLS200 DF myself, and find it outstanding in both movies and music.
 

Member 96948

Distinguished Member
THE SUB SEEMED TO HAVE LESS OUTPUT THAN MY PREVIOUS REL QUARKE
It does have less output - distortion output.;)

Now, are you going to stop shouting and let us help you out? As with all forums, it's best to ask questions before you purchase, but all is not lost.:)

There is no way on god's green earth that a quake approaches the capabilities of an XLS-200, so tell us about your setup and room/layout, in detail and we'll see what we can help with.

For instance, what gear are you running that requires high AND low level connections? You talk about inadequate filtering. Am I right in thinking this may have something to do with the minimum crossover frequency for the high level inputs?

Russell

PS. wELCOME!:D
 

12 promises

Active Member
i WAS LOOKING FOR A NEW SUB WHEN i CAME ACROSS YOUR FORUM. i NEEDED SOMETHING SMALL TO FIT IN WITH MY NEW ROOM, THAT COULD PROVIDE ME WITH REASONABLE DEPTH AND MUSICALITY. AFTER READING MANY GOOD REVIEWS OF THE BK XLS200 ON THIS FORUM I DECIDED TO BUY ONE BLIND (NOT A WISE MOVE IN RETROSPECT). WHEN I RECEIVED THE SUB I WAS VERY EXCITED BECAUSE IT SEEMED TO BE WELL MADE AND FINISHED BUT THAT IS WHERE MY EXCITEMENT ENDED! UPON CONNECTING IT UP - HIGH AND LOW LEVEL CONNECTIONS - IT SEEMED TO BE FINE FOR PLAYING MOVIES VIA THE LOW LEVEL CONNECTION BUT PLAYING MUSIC USING THE HIGH LEVEL CONNECTION, WHICH WAS REALLY MY PRIMARY CONCERN, IT WAS ABSOLUTELY USELESS - INADEQUATE FILTERING AND LIMITED POWER WHEN USING THE HIGH LEVEL CONNECTION. I CONTACTED BK ELECTRONICS AND EXPLAINED TO THEM THAT THE SUB SEEMED TO HAVE LESS OUTPUT THAN MY PREVIOUS REL QUARKE, THEY DULY REPLACED THE AMPLIFIED MODULE BUT THAT SEEMED TO MAKE NO DIFFERENCE. SO IN CONCLUSION, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR A HOME CINEMA SUB ONLY, ITS FINE, HOWEVER IF YOU ARE CONCERNED WITH PLAYING MUSIC LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE.

welcome,...............please turn caps off,forum members consider it shouting and rude.
i tell you this because for months i posted in caps unaware of my bad manners until someone put me right.
post your details as requested and all the really smart guys will give you the help you need to reach subwoofer nirvana. :thumbsup:
 

Dusteh

Active Member
I'm using mine on the high level connection for music and I've found I had to turn the gain and crossover to almost nothing to get it to fit into my system seamlessly. If anything its all too easy to let it dominate the soundstage.
 

handman

Standard Member
First I must apologise for keeping the Caps Lock on - didn't realise it was rude! Didn't mean to offend anybody. But like I said in my original post this is not the best Sub for Music. I have had Rels and MJ accoustic subs as well as various others and I have never had this problem until I bought the BK sub.
I am just speaking from my own experiences.
- oh and for the responder who asked me to detail how my room was set-up & what other equipment I have. I have Ruark epilogue front and rear - Epicentre, Pioneer AX5i, Rotell RB03 x 2, Cambridge audio 640CV2, Philips 963SA, Toshiba SE370 and Panasonic DMRES20. The room size is 5m wide x 7m length.
 

Petrushka

Active Member
Your experience is surprising. Like you, I bought the sub merely based on what I read here and I was about to report that I am totally happy with the advice.

I finally got some time to sit back and listen to some music yesterday. First I listened to Pink Floyd - Meddle (yeah... i'm over 50 ;) ) which is quite heavy on the sub and then I listened to a singer with only piano music and light drums in the background. I could hear the sound of the base drum very well pronounced without it being too loud or too distinctive.

I have spent only a minimal amount of time finetuning my setup and I'm already happy.

I heard the MA Radius / Quake combo in the local HiFi shop and in fact the XLS200DF is a lot better - at least for me it is. As you can see, sometimes it's just a matter of taste...
 

Dusteh

Active Member
Can you go into more detail about what you perceive the flaws to be? You say limited power, do you mean its sluggish and not very musical, or that it physically isn't putting out much bass? I find it surprising that you vastly preferred the Rel - weren't they actually being produced by BK at one point??

It took me a month to get mine to fit into my system properly, I listen to extreme bass-orientated music on one end of the scale, and the fine harp-plucking of Joanna Newsom on the other. Achieving a perfect balance took much knob tweaking. I can't be bothered to get a SPL meter and do it properly, but lack of 'oomph' was definately not a problem. I'm using mine with NAD pre/power amps and Quad speakers.
 

Member 96948

Distinguished Member
First I must apologise for keeping the Caps Lock on - didn't realise it was rude! Didn't mean to offend anybody. But like I said in my original post this is not the best Sub for Music. I have had Rels and MJ accoustic subs as well as various others and I have never had this problem until I bought the BK sub.
I am just speaking from my own experiences.
- oh and for the responder who asked me to detail how my room was set-up & what other equipment I have. I have Ruark epilogue front and rear - Epicentre, Pioneer AX5i, Rotell RB03 x 2, Cambridge audio 640CV2, Philips 963SA, Toshiba SE370 and Panasonic DMRES20. The room size is 5m wide x 7m length.
Webiquette forgiven and welcome to the forum.:D

Now this is where it's going to sound odd, but depending on which REL and any MJ that you've owned, then you've already had a least one BK sub in your room. Read the MJ site top to bottom and you will find they are very careful NOT to say that they actually manufacture their subs.;)

So, you're not happy thus far. Ok, lets see what we can do to help. As you've already spotted, there are a number of very happy punters on here with the XLS and as I've already alluded to, it shares a lot of DNA with the MJ Ref 200 which, I've owned. Of course had I known about the XLS back then, I'd have saved myself £350 dammit.:(

A good sized room of your size won't suffer from it's main modes (peaks and dips causing booms and cancellations) until the low thirty, down into the mid 20Hz region. It's quite possible that the XLS actually puts out sufficient energy in that frequency region to excite these booms. Your speakers don't and smaller subs like Quakes and Pro 50s, for instance, barely tickle these frequencies, inspite of the claimed specs.

The problem is not the sub booming - it's the room and these particular booming frequencies will rob good bass of it's tune, drive and definition. Not nice, as you are finding out.

To help sort it out we need a bit more detail.

1. I spot the AV receiver and the two RB03s which I take it are biamping an Epilogue each? If I'm right, everything is routed via the Pioneer as the preamp? Does this mean you are running the Epilogues as 'Large'?

2. Where in the room do you sit?

3. Where is the sub positioned?

4. Have you got an SPL meter? And have you ever downloaded any 1/6th octave sinewave test tones off the internet. If not then you need to.:)

Let us know,

Russell
 

asdonk

Active Member
do you have the front speakers set to large ?
using the high level input the speakers should be set to large
and what about the crossover settings ?
as I also use a xls200 is large room and also have a pioneer amp
maybe your settings are the problem
 

Deldrummer

Standard Member
I think the problem is that the input sensitivity of the sub is 1.5V. This means that an input of 1.5V to the sub will produce maximum output from the sub. This is a "line" level input, not "speaker" level and will never be able to take the full voltage fed into it.

The voltage across a pair of speaker terminals can range from 0 up to 10,20,30 volts depending on how loud the music. Everything above 1.5V will get chopped off and not amplified by the sub.

I tried an experiment with my XLS200, I connected the sub itself to my NAD amplifier, turned the volume up gradually and put a voltmeter across the speaker terminals. At some point the sub just did not get any louder (about 9 o'clock position on the volume of the NAD) The voltage at this point was around 1.5V.

I actually had mine sent back to BK electronic for the same reason, I think they ended up modifying mine to take larger signals (around 5 or 6 volts) but this was still not enough for my sometimes very loud listening levels.

The solution to this problem is to use a signal attenuator that reduces the signal level from the amplifier to the sub. I made one myself using a few resistors and a bit of circuit board that I just happened to have lying arround. If I remember mine cuts the input signal by a factor of 10 which is enough for normal listening.

The circuit is just a simple voltage divider network inserted into the high level lead. (Works really well). Obviosly not everyone has the electronics knowledge or bits lying arooud to make one, but I'm sure you must be able to buy something similar somewhere.

Anyway to sum up there's actually nothing wrong with the sub, just a strange choice of input sensitivity for the high level input by the manufacturers.
 

Dusteh

Active Member
Would switching to the low level RCA inputs solve this problem (from the preout on the NAD preamp)? Or is that not recommended for a stereo setup?
 

handman

Standard Member
deldrummer,thank you for your help, you have discribed exactly the problem im having.i dont have the skills to make a signal attenuator so maybe i will just sell the sub. i spoke to tom at bk, he told me that he had not heard of this problem before,strange when you have said you had the same problem and bk modified your sub.the lesson here for me is always try before you buy
 

Member 96948

Distinguished Member
What I don't get, is why, if all signals are routed via an AV amp, why would you even bother with the high level connection?

Fair play to deldrummer. He's got an integrated stereo amp and all the restrictions that implies.

But you have a user customisable bass mangement system in the Pioneer, but you'd rather ignore that in favour of the haphazard high level input method, which is not only the worst way, but the one that clearly doesn't work for you anyway.

You're in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Why?

Russell
 

handman

Standard Member
russ.will,i went for the bk so that i could use both connection at the same time,, meaning low level movies and high level for music,i find the bass is much better intergrated when using hi level for music.i wish bk would make it clear on there website that the xls has a limited function when using the high level connection.im not bk bashing ,this products is well made and pricing is excellent but for me the xls just does not perform well when used with a high level connection
 

Deldrummer

Standard Member
When I was having the same problem with mine, I checked a fair number of other manufacturers specs and 1.5V seems to be the most common input sensitivity alothough there were some that were 3V,8V, 12V. It's worth checking the specs if you intend to move on to ather sub or you may end up with the same problem again.

I'll have a look around to see what I can dig up about some more sensible input sensitivities from other manufacturers.

I'm actually using my high level connected to the NAD for hifi audio listening, with the low level input connected to my Cambridge Audio amp for watching movies, so can sort of get the best of both.
 

Deldrummer

Standard Member
Almost forgot, for a while I was using the pre-out connectors of the NAD connected to the low level inputs of the sub and this worked fine. I think I was intending bi-amping at one point wanted the pre-out free for this purpose rather than for output to the sub.

After a bit of searching here's a smaple of some input sensitivites.

JBL Eon Sub G2 20V
Elac 2.5V
Kiega Sub Amplifier Panel 4.2V

As you can see a fairly mixed bag there. Funnily enough while searching it seemes that car subs all seems to have a very high input sensitivities 10-20v while hifi subs are 1.5v or not specified at all. Strange.
 

Dusteh

Active Member
I like the idea of that, although like you I intend to run two c272 NAD power amps from my preamp - and I've only got two pre-outs. So there isn't a spare one for the sub.

Does anyone know if its possible to get good quality RCA splitters so two power amps could run off one pre-out?
 

Member 96948

Distinguished Member
russ.will,i went for the bk so that i could use both connection at the same time,, meaning low level movies and high level for music,i find the bass is much better intergrated when using hi level for music.i wish bk would make it clear on there website that the xls has a limited function when using the high level connection.im not bk bashing ,this products is well made and pricing is excellent but for me the xls just does not perform well when used with a high level connection
This is exactly, my point, you don't need the high level connections.

The sound you are prefering is the sound of bandwidth limited speakers, reproducing distorted bass, underpinned by a sub that can do it better if it's set up properly and allowed to do it.

Your mid range and treble are actually worse using the high level inputs. The amps and mid/bass units will be given a much easier time when not required to reproduce the current hungry, high excursion, distortion inducing deep bass notes that the speakers aren't actually capable of anyway.

Done this way, the whole system is capable of playing clearer and louder in a way that the Pure Direct button doesn't. This is especially true the louder you play it.

Do you have the basics like an SPL meter and test tones on CD?

Russell
 

handman

Standard Member
i do not prefer distored bass from bandwidth limited speakers,what you are saying is perfectly right when it comes to watching a movie.i have set all my speaker to small and sub to 80hz and for films its great.problem is its not so great for music i dont like any kind of bass management when listening to music.i dont play my music very loud so im not asking for a large amount of bass . i have had a quake and a mj ref1 and both of these sub worked fine with high level connection.bk advertise there sub as being able to accept both types of connection all im saying is this does not seem to be the case
 

asdonk

Active Member
did you have the MJ ref 1 mkI or MKII
as the MKII has only the thin crossover, that wordks fine for stereo and
movies, you have to set your fronts to large when using the high level neutrik
cable for stereo
my experience is that using a sub this way is always a kind of compromise
and using a seperate stereo amp will do the trick, for movies 5 small speakers with a monolith ,and for stereo 2 scanspeak DIY speakers with a RA Model 1 sub connected for stereo, this sub uses the same amp as the Gemini, also with twin crossover
how has the rest off you the monolith connected and set the crossover
I ask this because the xls200 and the monolith have the same crossover settings possible
so what are the best crossover settings for movies and stereo for a xls200 and monolith (also the upcoming xls300?PR0
 

Member 14718

Active Member
i have had a quake and a mj ref1 and both of these sub worked fine with high level connection.bk advertise there sub as being able to accept both types of connection all im saying is this does not seem to be the case

The electronics on the input of the REF1 is exactly the same as the electronics on the input of the XLS200. So if the REF1 worked fine then the XLS200 should as well. The XLS200 accepts signals on both inputs just fine; I see and hear it everyday both on an oscilloscope and by ear.

IIRC your set-up was working fine on the high level, and then it went quite and then worked for a little while then went quite again. You then contacted us and you sent the panel back for repair, we soak tested the panel and could not find a fault so we sent a new panel. The thinking behind this is that your problem sounded like an intermittent fault, say a dry joint. The chances of getting two panels with the same fault are extremely low so maybe the fault lie somewhere else in the chain.

Tom
 

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