BK Electronics - measurements

ZE1

Novice Member
Hi everybody,

I'm looking for a sub and there are many good reviews about Bk electronics subs on the internet. It is much more difficult to find some useful specifications. I've owned a few Rel subwoofers in the past and I wasn't very happy with them. Good reviews but no real performace. I wouldn't want to make the same mistake again.
I'm not sure Peerless driver can do much damage, especially sealed, so I'm looking at the PB300 PR. But to honest I'm not sure 12" will do it deep down :)
Does anaybody have any SPL measurements @ 20, 25, 30 Hz...?

Cheers
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
No SPL measurement data exists for BK subwoofers. BK doesn’t publish any and they’ve not been independently measured.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
It´s worth noting that if you got the space then you can get BK Monolith (300w) for same price as that P12-PR and it will outperform the smaller brother naturally due to almost twice the cabinet volume and ported design. It hit 100db at 20hz from 2meters outside so naturally more in-room especially if corner loaded. Sadly all measurements disappeared (tables) from the forum where they was printed. What i can tell you is lot of members have moved from REL subs to Monolith since 2005 or so and they haven´t regretted, zillion threads if you google. With Mono you can choose from FF or DF, the dimension of cabinet is not same so perhaps one of these would fit?


 

ZE1

Novice Member
No SPL measurement data exists for BK subwoofers. BK doesn’t publish any and they’ve not been independently measured.

Thanks for the info. I thought so. I found this page with quite a lot of measurements put together:
There are a few 12" subs with impressive measurements. Unfortunatelly no BK sub measurements anywhere.
 

ZE1

Novice Member
It´s worth noting that if you got the space then you can get BK Monolith (300w) for same price as that P12-PR and it will outperform the smaller brother naturally due to almost twice the cabinet volume and ported design. It hit 100db at 20hz from 2meters outside so naturally more in-room especially if corner loaded. Sadly all measurements disappeared (tables) from the forum where they was printed. What i can tell you is lot of members have moved from REL subs to Monolith since 2005 or so and they haven´t regretted, zillion threads if you google. With Mono you can choose from FF or DF, the dimension of cabinet is not same so perhaps one of these would fit?


I'm certainly not buying something without trying it or at least checking out measurements. As you can see from the link 15" subs have a huge advantage over 12" in terms of resolution and sound pressure. I haven't decided yet but ATM I'm leaning towards Klipsch. I've only heard their RF7 speakers and can tell you that these are heavy weight speakers. I don't like the overall sound but bass is really something else.
As you can see from the table SVS PB 2000 measures 112 dB @ 20 Hz, Klipsch 150 108,7. If Monolith really measures 100 dB @ 20Hz, then I don't think BK subwoofers are for me. Thanks.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I'm certainly not buying something without trying it or at least checking out measurements. As you can see from the link 15" subs have a huge advantage over 12" in terms of resolution and sound pressure. I haven't decided yet but ATM I'm leaning towards Klipsch. I've only heard their RF7 speakers and can tell you that these are heavy weight speakers. I don't like the overall sound but bass is really something else.
As you can see from the table SVS PB 2000 measures 112 dB @ 20 Hz, Klipsch 150 108,7. If Monolith really measures 100 dB @ 20Hz, then I don't think BK subwoofers are for me. Thanks.
Those are 1meter results for PB2000 and Klipsch R115. You need to be carefull what tables you look as different sites may still use the 1meter results and also don`t look too much in just one frequency. Sure you want decent deep bass output, but most program material is somewhere 30hz upwards. What i will say though is if you can afford PB2000 or PC2000 then don`t think twice. It`s reliable and has good performance, but it`s also massive box! Klipsch is similar in the deep bass region, but has way more chest slam in reality and measured output. That is due to larger 15" driver.

Klipsch speakers are easy to drive, they have high sensitivity don´t need tons of power to get loud. The older models may be little harsh (overly bright) due to horn tweeter, newer ones are less so. But they are dynamic and usually have high power handling, very popular for HT use.


Here are comparable (to BK Mono example) taken from 2meters (RMS) which is usually industry standard:

SVS PB-2000 CEA 2010 Results (2 meter RMS)
  • 20Hz 103.8 dB
  • 25Hz 107.6 dB
  • 31.5Hz 109.6 dB
  • 40Hz 110.1 dB
  • 50Hz 110.5 dB
  • 63Hz 111.5 dB

Klipsch R-115SW CEA 2010 Results (2 meter RMS)
20 Hz 99.7 dB
25 Hz 104.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.6 dB L
40 Hz 112.4 dB L
50 Hz 115.7 dB L
63 Hz 114.3 dB L
 

ZE1

Novice Member
Those are 1meter results for PB2000 and Klipsch R115. You need to be carefull what tables you look as different sites may still use the 1meter results and also don`t look too much in just one frequency. Sure you want decent deep bass output, but most program material is somewhere 30hz upwards. What i will say though is if you can afford PB2000 or PC2000 then don`t think twice. It`s reliable and has good performance, but it`s also massive box! Klipsch is similar in the deep bass region, but has way more chest slam in reality and measured output. That is due to larger 15" driver.

Klipsch speakers are easy to drive, they have high sensitivity don´t need tons of power to get loud. The older models may be little harsh (overly bright) due to horn tweeter, newer ones are less so. But they are dynamic and usually have high power handling, very popular for HT use.


Here are comparable (to BK Mono example) taken from 2meters (RMS) which is usually industry standard:

SVS PB-2000 CEA 2010 Results (2 meter RMS)
  • 20Hz 103.8 dB
  • 25Hz 107.6 dB
  • 31.5Hz 109.6 dB
  • 40Hz 110.1 dB
  • 50Hz 110.5 dB
  • 63Hz 111.5 dB

Klipsch R-115SW CEA 2010 Results (2 meter RMS)
20 Hz 99.7 dB
25 Hz 104.8 dB
31.5 Hz 109.6 dB L
40 Hz 112.4 dB L
50 Hz 115.7 dB L
63 Hz 114.3 dB L
Klipsch R-115SW15"portedNM123.2123.3124.7121.4114.6118.6113.8108.7
According to the source i found Klipsch is still on 108,7 dB @ 20 Hz, 113,8 @ 25Hz, which looks very very good. Especially for the price.
I don't know what your source is. Could you pls post a link. It's worth checking twice before making a decision. I'm somehow not scared Klipsch cannot outperform most 12". It is more question, what can I get in a smaller box and again at a decent price. There is also a question of reliability regarding Klipsch as I have read somewhere.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Klipsch R-115SW15"portedNM123.2123.3124.7121.4114.6118.6113.8108.7
According to the source i found Klipsch is still on 108,7 dB @ 20 Hz, 113,8 @ 25Hz, which looks very very good. Especially for the price.
I don't know what your source is. Could you pls post a link. It's worth checking twice before making a decision. I'm somehow not scared Klipsch cannot outperform most 12". It is more question, what can I get in a smaller box and again at a decent price. There is also a question of reliability regarding Klipsch as I have read somewhere.

Both figures are correct, but the ones i posted are shown as 2meter RMS. Yours is 1meter peak. You need to be carefull comparing the correct ones (1m or 2m) as i mentioned. I had the R-112SW for 3years i believe, no issues for me but i have read the earlier ones had some amp failures so i wouldn´t buy one without warranty. SVS is always safest pick if can afford/fit one.
 

ZE1

Novice Member
Both figures are correct, but the ones i posted are shown as 2meter RMS. Yours is 1meter peak. You need to be carefull comparing the correct ones (1m or 2m) as i mentioned. I had the R-112SW for 3years i believe, no issues for me but i have read the earlier ones had some amp failures so i wouldn´t buy one without warranty. SVS is always safest pick if can afford/fit one.
Thank you for your help. Since Klipsch is quite cheap these days and one can still get a new one, I don't think I'm willing to spend 2x price for SVS. If Klipsch doesn't do music well then I might reconsider it, but I'm sure it's a lot of fun. I was a bit disapointed with small sealed subs in the past. Lot's of distortion, muddy sound, not loud at all.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thank you for your help. Since Klipsch is quite cheap these days and one can still get a new one, I don't think I'm willing to spend 2x price for SVS. If Klipsch doesn't do music well then I might reconsider it, but I'm sure it's a lot of fun. I was a bit disapointed with small sealed subs in the past. Lot's of distortion, muddy sound, not loud at all.

The 15" should definitely be lot of fun as many has been quite impressed with it! If you can get new with warranty then should be fine, notice the SPL-150 is new version of R-115SW with slightly different looking amp with same specs, perhaps more reliable amp? Subwoofer placement is important so play around bit, closer to corner (furthest from openings) it will sound loudest due to boundary gain but may also sound boomy if you don´t have form of sub eq (example Audussey MultEQ XT32).
 

ZE1

Novice Member
The 15" should definitely be lot of fun as many has been quite impressed with it! If you can get new with warranty then should be fine, notice the SPL-150 is new version of R-115SW with slightly different looking amp with same specs, perhaps more reliable amp? Subwoofer placement is important so play around bit, closer to corner (furthest from openings) it will sound loudest due to boundary gain but may also sound boomy if you don´t have form of sub eq (example Audussey MultEQ XT32).
Thanks. I believe it is called loading, when you put a sub in the corner.
I have a separate dsp, which I use for measuring as well. I'm only going to use the sub under 40 Hz. My main speakers work very good down to 40 Hz and then fall sharply. I have a dip around 60 Hz in my listening position, which is a pain. I'm going to fill the hole under 40 Hz with a sub. Not sure about the dip @60 Hz. It's huge and I'm not sure if eq can solve it. It would also be good to have a crossover at 35 Hz, but that I can also try to solve with an EQ.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
That procedure is for music listening i assume.

For movies the usual way what 99% people do is to bypass the sub crossover (knob to LFE/max hz/bypass) and set speaker size small ( when sub in use) in receiver menu and set speaker crossovers 60-80hz if they are larger speakers, of course higher may work better in your room who knows.
 

ZE1

Novice Member
Klipsch R-115SW15"portedNM123.2123.3124.7121.4114.6118.6113.8108.7
According to the source i found Klipsch is still on 108,7 dB @ 20 Hz, 113,8 @ 25Hz, which looks very very good. Especially for the price.
I don't know what your source is. Could you pls post a link. It's worth checking twice before making a decision. I'm somehow not scared Klipsch cannot outperform most 12". It is more question, what can I get in a smaller box and again at a decent price. There is also a question of reliability regarding Klipsch as I have read somewhere.

Having read the page I have to say your measuremnts are a bit wrong. Read how tha data is collected. Everything is recalculated as if measured 1M CEA 2010 A. So all the data in the table is comparable. That means nothing much can compare to Klipsch at the price. I certainly won't buy anything based on a review. As I remember REL stampede had very good reviews, while the sub (if we can call it a sub) was a joke.
 
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password1

Distinguished Member
If you're considering the P12 pr, why not consider the xls400 as it has a better quality driver, more powerful amp and not much difference in price.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
If you're considering the P12 pr, why not consider the xls400 as it has a better quality driver, more powerful amp and not much difference in price.

It´s sealed model and doesn`t have as strong output below 30hz, probably not even higher up. The passive radiator is almost working as a port without having to use massive cabinet. I remember the XLS300-PR which BK had showed lot better performance over XLS200, in measurements. It was 10"+10"PR model with slightly larger cab i believe, it was so long ago can´t remember anymore.

BK said for movies in this order: Monolith, P12-PR are the best options. XXLS400 is often prefered for mixed movie/music systems or purely for 2.1 systems, the low end is bit soft and lacking which is reported by owners countless times aswell. However it´s also from 2009 i believe and the sealed SVS in that time were ahead of it in certain areas so the PR model is BKs option for those who can`t fit Monolith. Of course it has now hard time to keep up with other candidates as you have PB1000 Pro for 575£ after discount and it should be clearly better plus the longer warranties etc.
 

ZE1

Novice Member
xls400 is a sealed 12" woofer. I tried to get some measurements from BK, but haven't received a reply yet. I bet you xxls400 doesn't get much more than 90 dB @ 20 Hz. And I'm being optimistic there since the box is smaller than Linkwitz designed it. If you are using it together with some small inefficient UK speakers like Atc or Harbeth then it might be fine. If you want to build some real pressure in the room, Peerless just cannot handle it. I've made one myself using the same driver and a larger box... and I'm using it together with small active monitors in a very small room.
PR on the other hand is more like a ported design. More headroom, less distortion... It was a possibility, since the reviews are so good. Problem is the mistery about BK measurements. Since there arent any, I'm worried they aren't very good. I've heard Rels ST and Britania series subs. No good, whatever reviewers say. Muddy, distorted, no chest pressure. If I could compare a BK to Klipsch and SVS I would do it. But it's not easy.
 
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ZE1

Novice Member
A peerless xls400 driver with a passive radiator might work well.

What's the driver in the P12?
You need 2 12" passive drivers for one active 12". It's a possibility, but hard to predict what happens. What is the tunning frequency? Better to leave that to proffesionals.
 

D1gita1

Active Member
It´s worth noting that if you got the space then you can get BK Monolith (300w) for same price as that P12-PR and it will outperform the smaller brother naturally due to almost twice the cabinet volume and ported design. It hit 100db at 20hz from 2meters outside so naturally more in-room especially if corner loaded. Sadly all measurements disappeared (tables) from the forum where they was printed. What i can tell you is lot of members have moved from REL subs to Monolith since 2005 or so and they haven´t regretted, zillion threads if you google. With Mono you can choose from FF or DF, the dimension of cabinet is not same so perhaps one of these would fit?


I had a Monolith, I got rid of it and changed it for the double gem, which I prefer in my room.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I had a Monolith, I got rid of it and changed it for the double gem, which I prefer in my room.

You have always prefered sealed subwoofers so not that suprising and looking the picture you were quite limited with space. :) And i remember you had issues with your neighbours so in that sense DG is likely more neighbour friendly where as Monolith can cause more issues. Will be intresting to see your outside measurements though.
 

ZE1

Novice Member
I would be very interested to see some actual measurements of Monolith, well any BK sub. It can't be that difficult to send them for a decent review somwhere.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I would be very interested to see some actual measurements of Monolith, well any BK sub. It can't be that difficult to send them for a decent review somwhere.

Hometheatershack has measured the original Monos (300w), sadly they changed something in the site and the graphs got destroyed. Frequency response ~ 19hz - 200hz -3db. Max output was 99,7db at 20hz from 2meters (outside) and dropping very fast below 20hz. Higher up the mid-bass max output was in the region of 105db and the Mono Plus won`t be dramatically better cause the driver is very similar in specs so +200w is not going to make big difference. Newer designs like SVS PB1000 Pro at 575£ with discount offers better bang for buck (performance, warranty, phone app control with PEQ, room gain compensation etc). However 480£ the basic 300w Mono is still solid buy if you require wood veneer finishes. I would wish they would update the models, first Mono came early 2000.
 

Tweak

Novice Member
C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_Monolith.png

If it helps anyone this is a graph I saved a decade ago about the BK Monolith 300w version. I believe I saved it from the hometheatershack forum review and it was a measure of the model before they added the ASP automatic speaker protection audibly transparent driver protection. There was comment/speculation at the time that might “change” the sound. Even so, better than blowing the speaker on your new baby.
I use a 300w Monolith with ASP. Sounds great. My in room measure are in line this graph. Good to 20hz then tails off sharply.
 

Cyph3r

Active Member
I have a BK Monolith Plus and I had measurement data (in-room obviously) from REW using a UMIK-1 mic. Calibrated on my Denon 3600H (Aud XT32).

In my experience you can expect 18hz -3dB and 2.5% THD @ 20hz/103dB
 

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