Biwiring into A & B binding posts.

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Alan_eye, Sep 1, 2002.

  1. Alan_eye

    Alan_eye
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    Someone on another forum said they have bi-wired their main speakers using both the A & B speaker connections and then setting the amp to play both A&B. Is this right? Is it benefitial, or detrimental, or does it just make it easier than trying to get the twisted pair into a single binding post?
    Alan
     
  2. Gambit

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    If you bi-wire without bi-amping (as it is when you use A+B speaker outs) you get about a 5% increase in quality. You cut out part of the crossover, and this gives the increase. Its the equivelent of using 2-4 terminated bi-wire cable.
     
  3. Alan_eye

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    So what do you do...just take the other black and red cables, feed them into the B speaker connections and then set the amp to play both A & B?
     
  4. Gambit

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    Yeah, assuming your using a bi-wire cable, use the second set of conductors in the B speaker outs and play away. If you don't switch on B speaker, you'll only get bass or high end, it wont damage the speakers. Make sure you remove the links on your speakers, because if you leave them in then you'll be connecting the output stage of your amp to the output stage- not good. That the only thing that can really screw your amp that I can think of when doing this. What amp you using?
     
  5. Alan_eye

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    I'm on a Denon 3802 with KEF65 mains.
     
  6. Gambit

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    Yep, should be fine. Just take the links out, take the wires from speaker out B to the pair of posts not all ready wired and flick the switch to A+B on.
     
  7. Alan_eye

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    Cheers Gambit. One other thing...I also use the RELQ100E, so should the wires off that be connected to particular posts?
    Alan
     
  8. Gambit

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    Do you connect it with a single phono or using the REL three pin plug thingy? The gas-tight neutrik speakon connection.
     
  9. Alan_eye

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    I connect up with both. Are you going to tell me that is a bad thing?:clown:
     
  10. MuFu

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    I have bi-wired 601 s3's (A + B hookup) and a REL Q100E. I just use the Neutrik lead...

    Red to A (right channel +ve)
    Black to A (right channel -ve)
    Yellow to A (left channel +ve)

    Seems to work fine. You won't skew the load in any way, don't worry. :)

    MuFu.
     
  11. Gambit

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    I've never done it with both TBH. When using AV amps, the phono connection has all ways been most convinient and on two channel amps you can only use the speakon connection but if it's all ready connected, don't change anything. The speaker outputs on the amp aren't putting out anything different, it's your speaker end that has changed so it'll continue to work fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Give us a shout when you've wired it up bi-wired and tell me if you can "spot the difference" or if I've just been wasting your time:D
     
  12. Alan_eye

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    Cool, Gambit...I'll have a listen to something first and then change it and see if I can hear anything.

    Thanks for the input (pun not intended) MuFu.
    Alan
     
  13. Gambit

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    Anything Alan?
     
  14. Alan_eye

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    I've just come back. I've taken the HF terminals on the speakers to the A connections on the amp, and the LF terminals to the B connections. I've left the sub wired into the HF connections on the amp as MuFu suggested.

    I wish there was an accurate way of measuring all this, but my 'feeling' is that the clearness of the sound has moved up a notch while the bass feels smoother. Is that the kind of improvement I should be hearing, or am I just kidding myself? :p

    The films I listened to seemed better, especially the smooth bass. My son had a listen and all he could say was it sounded damn good! :)

    I think it was worth it. Thanks for your help Gambit and Mufu...much appreciated...
    Alan
     
  15. Gambit

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    Sounds about right. Your by-passing weak parts of the cross over and so an improvement in clarity sounds about right. Next week, we'll discuss how to put a dedicated hifi power amp on your front channels using your Denon as a pre...:D
     
  16. Alan_eye

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    Hahaha....nice one :D

    But can you explain to me in simple terms what crossover is all about? I don't understand all that. I noticed that I have a cross over setting on my main speakers in the Denon's menu system. At the moment it is set to 80...is that where it should be considering the REL sub I have?
     
  17. MuFu

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    LOL, every day's a school day. ;)

    Well I was pretty scepticle about bi-wiring but went ahead anyway since I only use a stereo pair and had quite a bit of excess cable. I blind tested myself and yes, the difference was subtle but still tangible. It definitely wasn't a massive improvement, but did improve clarity slightly also tightened up the bass end a tad. To be honest, the units were fairly new at the time and it felt a bit like I had gone back a week in the "running in" process. :eek: Since the 601s are have pretty "clinical/cold" sounding bass (not really weak, just a bit on the dry side) it was at that point I decided to look for a sub and luckily got a good deal on a s/hand Q100E. I haven't looked back since. I have it set at a pretty low level on the Neutrik line and it just sits there rounding off the bottom end nicely. :D

    MuFu.
     
  18. Gambit

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    Yeah sure: your crossover basically separates HF and LF and sends it to the relevant driver (this is really basic, BTW). Most crossovers are two way, meaning it separates into just HF and LF, but you can get 3way and upto 5way (that I've seen). When you bi-amp, you actually use seperate amps to run the tweeter and the bass driver, this means there is no interference between signals in the amp (because they are in seperate boxes) and thus you get a better sound. If you ask CJCROSS, he will give you a much better description or might even do a sticky for this section (hint hint).
     
  19. Gambit

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    PS, when setting up your sub, you should set the roll off to more or less where your speakers give up, i.e. if you have a frequency response of 45-20,000Hz out of your Kef's, then set your roll off at about 50Hz. This is again a bit like a crossover, as it sets the level where you sub cuts off and so doesn't interfere with your speakers.
    As to the crossover setting on your amp, I don't have the 3802 but if you start a thread about it, I'm sure some friendly owners (and are there any other type in the forum?;) ) will come to your aid.
     
  20. Alan_eye

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    Right, I had a kind of muddled interpretation of that in my head...thanks for clearing it. And what of my other question...the one about setting the crossover in the amps menu system? There are 3 settings 80 100 & 120. Where should I have that set?
    Alan
     
  21. Gambit

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    ;) :D
     
  22. Alan_eye

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    That was a cheeky edit....are you trying to make me look a fool :blush: :D
     
  23. Gambit

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    What, me? Nay sir:D
    I'll have an ask of a couple of guys I know who have them and if I can find out I'll put it here.
     
  24. Gambit

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    Ok, here we go, direct quote:

    Re: 3802

    It's the bass management. Whatever you set it to, it will feed frequencies lower than that to the sub if the speakers are set to small.

    If he has decent full range speakers try it first at 80Hz but if small satellittes it may have to go higher.

    The crossover on the sub should be set to max so that only the amp manages the bass
    __________________

    So it sounds like, due to the fact you have big fronts, your right to set it to 80. Hope this helps
     
  25. Alan_eye

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    Thanks Gambit, but what's this about setting the crossover on the sub to max? I take it the they mean the frequency control, or roll off, as the REL calls it. The other two controls are high and low gain. So they reckon I should set the frequency to max? So then I would have to adjust the high and low gain because the the bass would become too boomy. Does that sound right?
    Alan
     
  26. Reiner

    Reiner
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    If you bi-wire without bi-amping (as it is when you use A+B speaker outs) you get about a 5% increase in quality.

    ROTFL. Can you in any way support, proof or explain why this is exactly 5%?

    @Alan-eye: the cut-off frequency for the line level input at the sub should be set to MAX (or "Bypass" if available) as the receiver takes care of the bass management. It's a kind of redundant when used with an AV amplifier/receiver.

    For high-level (speaker-level) connection this may not apply.

    As for bi-wiring: you can use the A and B terminals for convenience, makes no noticable difference IMO.
    That said instead of bi-wiring you may just double the diameter (cross-section) of your existing cable, that should give you the same benefit.

    But then again this is one of those subjects which causes heaty discussions, so please take this as my very personal opinion only!
     
  27. Gambit

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    No:blush: its just a really loose term that I tend to use and I know I shouldn't; thanks reiner:D


    On this however, I cant agree, sorry. IMH (and it is opinion, yes) even bi-wiring from just one amp (as Alan has done) makes a difference. And as far as cable diameter goes, that has nothing to do with the sound IMO. Look at the original Chord Rumour- one of the thinnest cables I've seen and about £10 a metre, also great sound. Teflon di-electrics and silver coated conductors help, by very very small...
     
  28. Electric Mayhem

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    Just one thing chaps. The Denon 3802 doesn´t have A or B main speaker terminals, it has Surround A and Surround B terminals though. To bi-wire the main speakers just double up the cables going into the terminals, two runs instead of one and then connect to the relevant terminals of the speakers.
     
  29. MikeK

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    Sounds about right. Your by-passing weak parts of the cross over and so an improvement in clarity sounds about right.


    Not being picky, but which parts of the crossover are being bypassed?


    Teflon di-electrics and silver coated conductors help, by very very small...

    How?
    There's absolutely no objective evidence to suggest why this would be so. There's no real subjective evidence either - if there were, there would be concensus on the fact that silver coated cables sounded superior - and there certainly is no such concensus. Same for Teflon.


    Double the cable thickness?
    I think what Reiner was getting at is the reduction in cable impedance cause by using another run, is similar in effect to simply doubling the diameter of the single cable.
     
  30. Alan_eye

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    I'm not had home right now, but I believe you are wrong on this point. The 3802 has surround backs which I am using, and it has an addition set of main speaker terminals. If I had wired into surround terminals I wouldn't be getting proper bass from my mains would I?
    Alan
     

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