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BIG sub and P***ed off neighbours..Maybe a solution?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Building DIY' started by danny-p, Apr 27, 2004.

  1. danny-p

    danny-p
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    http://www.1st4soundproofing.co.uk/index.html


    Il be honest and say i don't know how good this stuff is (as its not out yet) and don't know the cost either:(
    But am willing to try anything to allow myself to be able to play my amp/speakers how they were meant to be played.
     
  2. danny-p

    danny-p
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    To save everyone reading the several pages of the link...This sound deadening is fitted to your walls/ceiling etc then you paper over it as normal or if its on a wooden floor you lay the sound deadener to the floorboards then lay carpet or laminate flooring as normal over the top of it.
    Basically its built up of 2 sections held together by some special tape with a 25mm air gap.

    Suppose the million dollar question is how much:D
     
  3. ACOUSTICE

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    Hi All

    I am the creator of www.1st4soundproofing.co.uk. We have a range of products that are suitable for a variety of noise problems.

    The material you are talking about i think is a thin flexible acoustic barrier with a built in resilient layer.

    This material is ideal for laying under carpets to stop noise going down to the room below. It is also ideal for use under amps and decks etc to reduce vibration problems.

    If any body has any questions please give me a callon 01206 385139 or email first4soundproofing@btinternet.com
     
  4. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Auralex Grammas will help especially if you have a suspended floor.
     
  5. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Probably more appropriate in the DIY section so I will transfer this thread there.
     
  6. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    A stud wall built away from the existing wall will help more as it is isolating more. Something like the gramma or DIY quivalent will help reduce vibrations which are the hardest part to stop.

    Use the search for building a studd wall for soundproofing, as there are quite a few threads covering this.

    Gary.
     
  7. Nimby

    Nimby
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    Don't you think giving a general idea of costs would be a good idea regarding "first4's" products ACOUSTICE?
    I checked your website (briefly) and there's absolutely no mention of costs anywhere.

    Not much technical information there either.

    No graphs illustrating frequency in relation to noise reduction? How does it perform at a typical AV subwoofer induced 100dB @ 30Hz-50Hz for instance? Stopping high frequency noise is mere child's play in comparison.

    This reminds me too much of double glazing and home insulation salesmen's avoidance of ever quoting a price. Until the sale was made. By then the "customer" was too embarrassed to admit they couldn't really afford it and just wanted to get rid of the salesman/consultant!

    Would you care to share typical costings V performance in comparison with conventional doubled plasterboard stud walls & rockwool insulation blanket/batts?

    Or acoustic foam/HD batts under a standard floating chipboard floor construction? Or even fitting a decent carpet over felt or foam underlay to reduce impact noise?

    DIY sub/mains isolation platforms might also achieve more against conducted sound at a miniscule fraction of the cost and effort involved.

    Or am I being unfair to your products ACOUSTICE?

    The golden rule is always: That if you have to ask. You can't afford it!

    Are we now looking at noise reduction as the latest sales gimmick after double glazing and home insulation?

    Nimby
     
  8. danny-p

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    PERFECT question:smashin:

    Awaiting an answer:smashin:
     
  9. IronGiant

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    Wow, that's telling him... Any particular reason to go at ACOUSTICE quite so hard after his first post?
    Just curious,
    Dave
     
  10. Nimby

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    Dave

    Only a total lack of technical information on their website and an absence of pricing. Followed up by a quotation application form.

    It just reminded me too much of double glazing and cavity wall insulation sales methods of the past.

    Perhaps I'm being completely unfair? ACOUSTICE has every right to respond and should.

    If he wants to sell his products and services to forum members then he should post again. Giving enough technical information to satisfy knowledgeable enthusiast's natural desire to know what their money buys for them. AND how much a typical AV room treatment is likely to cost.

    He has a large, interested, perfectly targetted, captive audience for zero advertising & publicity costs here. Why hasn't he responded with masses of technical information? This is surely a salesman's dream situation? It really doesn't get any better than this!

    Example: The flooring treatment is surely a standard price per square metre? So what does it actually cost Mr AV-erage to buy per square metre? Why isn't the price mentioned on the website?

    Why isn't the (average case) noise reduction graphed (or tabled) in frequency against dB? (with comparison studies of alternative inferior floorings to confirm the superiority of his own products)

    Nimby
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

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    bump :) we are waiting ;)
     
  12. danny-p

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    I think we should move this back into the Subwoofer section as mr Acoutice was replying then:smashin:
    Just a thought
     
  13. danny-p

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    I take it that this stuff hasn't got the ronseal seal of quality...E.g, does exactly what it says on the tin..:rotfl:




    In other words Sh** don't do as its described on his site....As someone else said...The double glazing sales pitch :thumbsdow

    I take it all back if the Dude replys with all the facts about his product and proves me wrong.

    Duder
     
  14. Iain Shields

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    Hasn't anyone ever heard of innocent until proven guilty!!!

    It's possible he isn't a regular browser of the forum, why don't you folks drop him an e-mail at the address he gave and invite him to discuss his products with everyone here.

    I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't show up though, especially with several people ready to jump down his throat at the mearest hint of an unsatisfactory product.

    From the looks of the website it is a small company and possibly new... Give the guy a chance.

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  15. Nimby

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    Iain

    You may well be right and I approve of your sense of fair play.

    My intention was simply to warn others on this forum that they should be careful when dealing with all such services. One would have hoped for far more information to go on before investing in these types of products or services.

    My hope was to stimulate an interesting discussion with ACOUSTICE from which we might all learn. Those offering such services would hopefully be experts on such matters with much to teach us. I had no idea my original post would be met with silence from ACOUSTICE.

    I have e-mailed ACOUSTICE and invited him to return to the discussion here on the DIY forum. He should not be assumed to be guilty of anything simply because he chooses not to discuss his products or services here.

    Nimby
     
  16. Iain Shields

    Iain Shields
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    Hi Nimby,

    Weather or not I was right or wrong dosn't really matter mate, if I was put off by the accusing nature of your post then imagine how it would feel to a person with something to loose (e.g. a reputation)

    Don't get me wrong though, you obviously know your stuff and every question you asked is perfectly valid and should be answered, I just fear we won't get the chance to hear those answers...

    Regards,
    Iain.
     
  17. danny-p

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    Yea, i've sent him a pm, 2x Emails and still no reply....If it is decent stuff i'l definately be kitting my room out in the stuff!!!
    Just a little worried that if i do buy the stuff and theres an error then i'd be up the creek:suicide:

    Like i said , if its good put my name down.
    Danny-p
     
  18. Nimby

    Nimby
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    I sent ACOUSTICE an e-mail too (via the company) but haven't had a response either.

    I am concerned that you haven't had a response to your e-mails danny-p.

    I suppose they might be affected by a virus and lost their computer access temporarily. Would it be impertinent to ask someone local to try ringing the company to confirm this?

    The more I think about this matter the more I feel I made a bad call. I allowed my personal prejudices to cloud my judgement.

    Much as I would have liked to see more technical information on the website I won't make further excuses.

    I offer my sincere apologies to the forum members for my criticisms and negative generalisations in my posts on this matter.

    I shall of course send my personal apologies to ACOUSTICE.

    Please ignore my posts concerning this company. Only you can decide whether the products suit your needs at a price you can afford. Please do not allow my comments to sway you one way or the other.

    Nimby
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    It would be nice if Acoutice said something
     
  20. Nimby

    Nimby
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    I have posted the response to my e-mail to ACOUSTICE. I think it speaks for itself:

    Hi Nimby

    I`m sorry i havent noticed that certain questions had been raised as i am
    still dealing with the deluge of customer enquiries that i get on a daily
    basis.

    It appears that you have mis-understood my intentions, my initial posting
    was in response to a contact that was made by somebody from your forum , the
    initial enquiry was from a concerned young person about the effect that his
    music playing was having upon a family in the flat below him, he was unable
    to find any free advice regarding the problem.

    I will give you a detailed explanation that will hopefully clear up your
    concerns, as i do not wish to get into a running internet argument that will
    last for eternity.

    Usually customers we deal with are trying to stop footfall, talking and tv
    noise being heard from the flat below or neighbours next door. Our website
    is only 6 months old and was put online to offer a quick easy to find advice
    route for people with similar problems.

    You will notice, that our website at the moment, does not have vast amounts
    of technical information, the reason for this is very simple. Only about 5%
    of the population of this country actually understand about the technical
    side of how sounds are transmitted, the 5% who do know do not need us
    telling them what they already do know.

    The other main problem is that no 2 problems are the same, houses are built
    differently, music equipment is placed in different positions and and on
    different surfaces. As you already know, all these things can have a
    dramatic effect on the transmission of sounds from one room to the other,
    and we as acoustic engineers have to ask certain questions before we can
    give accuarate advice.

    Finally people in general get bored very quickly if they can`t find what
    they are looking for, so we set out to create a website that encourages
    people to ring or email us with their problem, we will then endeavour to
    solve the problem in the cheapest way possible, as cost is always an issue.

    We of course do have information about how our products perform at certain
    frequencies, you are indeed right to say that Low Frequency is by far more
    difficult to stop than High Frequency. The products we have designed are
    aimed at the normal problems eg Footfall, Tv noise and talking, we have
    never intended to try to design a product that will stop large amounts of
    low frequency noise, because few people have this problem and they would not
    be able to afford the products anyway.

    Equally I have not been able to compare our products with other materials
    because other companies do not offer SRI (Sound Reduction Index) values for
    their products for one very good reason, it does not look impressive to say
    that their products achieve say 10 dB of noise reduction, even though that
    10 dB is actually quite an achievement and would dramatically affect the
    amount of noise heard by a neighbour.

    In any event we are not trying to be like other companies, we are trying to
    offer some realistic and practical advice to concerned individuals on what
    they can do to reduce noise from coming in or out of their room. From the
    responses i get daily i know that this is appreciated and on most occasions
    i can advise people on taking steps that don`t actually cost the anything.

    I appreciate that you may know a little more than the average person about
    how sound travels and as such i am sure, you your self could offer good
    advice to your friends on the forum, all i was trying to do was to let the
    less informed person know that we are a company that can offer practical
    advice as well as products that may reduce the problem that they are
    experiencing. Unfortunately i do not have the time to visit your forum on a
    regular basis, so i am relying on people visiting our site and then
    contacting us directly about any problem they may have.

    I hope you have found my response useful and i would of course not object to
    you posting this on the forum, however i think that it may be a little long
    winded, which is why i didnt send it straight to the forum, i will leave
    that decision up to you.

    Yours sincerely

    Mark Page A.M.I.O.A (Associated Member of the Institute of Acoustics)
    1st4soundproofing Ltd
     
  21. rOAdeh

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    well he has some fair points with regards to most people not needing technical information and the fact that lfe are generally uncommon in the typical household and thus does not need figures to demonstrate this..

    however the implication is there that the soundproofing offered would not be suitable for our intended use so i guess it means back to the drawing board then :/
     
  22. Nic Rhodes

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    seems a far reply and a good business model to me
     
  23. ACOUSTICE

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    Dear All

    I am sorry that i have not been back to comment on the discussion that i have apparently provoked.

    I received an email directly from Nimby himself and sent a comprehensive response to his comments.

    I thought it might be prudent on my part to post his subsequent response to my email, due to the negative publicity that this discussion created. I can not post the full transcript of my email as it is to long but i would gladly forward it to any body who contacts me.

    Any way please find Nimby`s reply below.


    Dear Mark & Jim

    I am a complete idiot.

    I allowed myself the luxury of an anonymous dig at your company based on
    entirely on preconceived notions, a swift look round your website and bad
    (sales) experiences with other "home improvement" products in the past.

    Please accept my sincerest apologies for my childish posts on the forum. I
    shall endevour to put things right at once.

    I am delighted to hear that you are snowed under with work.

    Thankyou for your kindness in answering my e-mail at such a busy time.
    I do not derve such compassion and sincerely hope I have learnt something
    from this foolish episode.

    Best regards and the best of luck in the future.
    Chris (Nimby)

    My offer was a sincere one and still remains, if anybody out there has any noise problem that they wish to solve then please call me on 01206 385139 and i will do my best to help.

    Best Regards

    ACOUSTICE
    Mark Page A.M.I.O.A. (Associated Member of the Institute of Acoustics)
     
  24. danny-p

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    Yeah totall agree mate.....Apologies to ACOUSTICE:beer:
     
  25. ACOUSTICE

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    To rOAdeh

    What exactly is it that you are trying to achieve.? Low frequencies are reduceable but require substantial isolated mass barriers and this is usually expensive.

    We can build noise control surfaces to suit a specific requirement but it would be using a different combination of Materials.

    ACOUSTICE
     
  26. rOAdeh

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    Acoustice,

    It all depends on what happens with the house i'm about to move into, i thought we might be extending at first and i'd be able to incorporate soundproofing as part of the building but it's also possible that i may be using a converted brick shed that is connected to the house in which case depending on it's condition might require seperate soundproofing.

    Ideally by definition to me soundproofing would mean that no sound leaks out - and for home cinema that would mean a complete full audio range solution at volumes that could peak at 115db (?); obviously a solution to that would undoubtedly be horrifically expensive and so it's likely that a compromise will be needed

    i'm just starting to look at the options and am not sure if i feel safe enough leaving it in the hands of "Bob & Mates" or whatever - the local builders...
     
  27. ACOUSTICE

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    Hi Roadeh

    Right you first need to consider who is likely to suffer most from the noise created, ie neighbour next door or another room inm your house.

    The next consideration is how close the affected party is to your proposed location.

    Next, what is the construction of the converted shed, especially the roof. The brick walls are a good start, but their mass will need increasing. i would suggest that the walls would need to be pointed properly on the outside then on inside fix battens on the inside to create caity of say 100mm then fill half that depth with Mineral fibre. Now fix 3 layers of 9mm plasterboard on to battens, ensuring joins to do not lign up. Now apply skin coat of plaster.

    Unfortunately you need to have a door, which is going to cause a weak point. The door needs to be solid wood not cheap honeycombe type. an additional layer or 2 of plasterboard. then the difficult bit is how to seal the door shut. 2 layers of rubber overlapping door edge might work but you would be better off with a proper rubber bubble seal that is compressed on shutting.

    Any windows would need to be at least double glazed and as small as possible.

    The roof is also a major problem. I would suggest at least 2 layers of 25mm MDF seperated by air gap and filled again with absorption. No gaps around eaves of roof is extremely important.

    Ventilation- In a room thats sealed like this you are probaly going to get warm very quickly. So for long periods inside you may need to look at that as well.

    Finally floor, i would assume that it is concrete and therefore should be ok.

    If you do all the above you would probably get about 25-30 dB Noise Reduction. However if your in 110dB with out ear protection then your soon going to need a hearing aid.!!!

    NR over distance is helpful, 20m distance would give about 25 dB assuming free field.

    You would have to be serious to go to all this length but unfortunately there is no cheap solution.

    We could provide a flat pack kit to build inside the shed but it would cost considerably more than what ive described above.



    Hope this helps.

    ACOUSTICE
     
  28. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Acoustice.

    Nice reply.

    I've always used and recommended 2 layers of half inch plasterboard with no more nails used in between. Sometimes one half inch layer and one 5/8 layer of plasterboard, so I'm curious to why you recommend 3 layers of 9mm - is it purley due to added mass (more than 2 x 1/2 inch) or is there another reason?

    Thanks in advance.

    Gary.
     
  29. Anastie

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    Just a point that may help (or may not) About 3 years ago I lived in an old pit terrace house and was concerned like everyone on here about the level of noise my home cinema gear was causing my neighbours, so I did some research...
    At the time I could not find a company like the one in this thread but the principles that \I was advised to use were almost identical. The only difference was that I got the builder to use Rockwool sound proofing blocks (see their website). The method used was as Acoustica described. The result was extremly effective. The only weak point was the kitchen wall that also joined the other parties wall as I could hear her piano through my kitchen wall now that was weird!
    In summary with no techie info or DB figures all walls and installation can be different but mine made a huge difference. I played my movies and music the way I wanted to.

    BTW before we moved I went next door (under false pretence- lol cup of suger etc) as I had to hear how effective it was (She was elderly and we never spoke more that general chat) so I put the big Matrix lobby shoot out on at a volume louder than I could comfortably listen to and went next door. It made my day all I could hear from her house was a muffled sound :) It worked for me.
     

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