BIG NEWS: DV27a SDI Modification

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by X3ELS, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    Big news all,

    I now have a DV27a with SDI modification working perfectly. :)

    At present it is far from tidy but within an hour or so it will be awesome, have just been comparing the component output vs the SDI output into a Lumagen Pro (with SDI) and the difference is surprisingly obvious.

    I will post photos of component vs SDI screenshots when i get the opportunity.

    So who wants to buy one then :laugh:
     
  2. sticker

    sticker
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    Don't temp me :devil:
     
  3. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    well done
     
  4. garmtz

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  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I have started saving. When I left PJ yesterday morning they had just got an image. I SO wanted to stay to play.

    So now if you want great sound and SDI you have a V. Good option.

    Gordon
     
  6. dealmaker

    dealmaker
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    Pardon my ignorance but what is SDI and what benefits would this connection give me over the progressive scan outputs from my DV27A that I currently run through my Sony VPL VW10 HT Projector?

    Many thanks
     
  7. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Can I try to answer this to save Gordon some typing!

    SDI is the professional digital video standard, straight of the MPEG2 decoder.

    It is interlaced, not progressive scan, but if you have a video de-interlacer/scaler/processor that can handle this input, like the Lumagen Vision Pro mentioned by X3ELS, then it means the signal has avoided being converted to analog component and then back. i.e. It saves a DAC and ADC conversion pair and avoids any signal loss/noise/error that the conversions and component connectors/cables may have otherwise caused.

    It would benefit your Sony if you had a scaler capable of accepting SDI. Another similar benefit is if the projector takes a DVI digital input as this again avoids similar losses to above, but after the scaler. This is the all-digital path that gives no analog noise for plasma panel or bulb panel projectors that many seek to achieve.

    At the EventII we learnt that manufacturers are not allowed to build-in SDI outputs, but over the next year HDMI digital outputs will be becoming more common and also give access to the exact digitial signal like SDI does.

    However SDI is here and now and works.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  8. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    Absolutely Correct Rob.

    It is also cheap and without all the associated hassle HDMI will bring :rolleyes:

    Go for SDI in my opinion it will be the best bet for at least a good 2 years.

    P.S. I believe there is an SDI player for sale in the classifieds :smashin:
     
  9. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
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    I assume.. that this mod could be fitted to the DV88+ then ?

    Cheers

    Matt
     
  10. lowrider

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    Questions:

    1 - Who does that mod, is it simple,

    2 - Can it be done to the original DV27,

    3 - Can you take SDI output after PS... :confused:
     
  11. sticker

    sticker
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    My most important question......How much does it cost?


    Also I have the Lumagen Vision, what difference is there between this and the Pro version? Also is the Pro better?

    regards

    John
     
  12. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    I hope the difference is more obvious than it was during the demo at Event II. Switching between component and SDI on the fly there was very little noticeable difference at all to be honest (anyone see a noticeable improvement?). It certainly didn't leap out at you and say 'this is worth paying n00 pounds for'. I have to admit I was suprised as my experience of DVI suggests it is a noticeable improvement over VGA.

    Andy
     
  13. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    Andy

    In no way criticising Nicks demos, as we were trying to show more important things, but ideally a test wedge of component vs SDI should have been shown, then the difference is quite obvious.

    FYI, below are 2 images one S-video followed by SDI showing a 6.75mhz test wedge from Avia.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I know Component will fair better but this is to give you the idea.

    Mods will cost in the region of £500. The SDI board is NOT cheap (like most are) and the mod took over 4 hours to perform, hence why no-one else has cracked it yet (to my knowledge anyway).

    Should be able to do DV88+ DV27 DV89.

    Also SDI carries interlaced not progressive
     
  14. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    I wasn't criticising the demo , merely stating that switching from component to SDI via the lumagen (at 920p no less) didn't reveal much of an improvement at all in my opinion. £500 is a lot of money so I guess there must be a noticeable improvement, kind of contradicts what John Dawson said though that there isn't much difference between analog and digital connections as long as the A/D , D/A conversions are done well (which I assume is the case with Arcam DVD players).

    Andy.
     
  15. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    Elliot, this mod sounds great and should appeal to those who are obsessed with getting every last bit of detail. Just to let you know, digital video essensials has a 5.75mhz to 6.75mhz "multiburst" horizontal resolution test pattern that is the toughest resolution test for any dvd player/scaler/screen! It's supposed to look like fine black and white lines, with no patterning (moir). If it's just grey then your missing fine detail. If your setup can display this with no moir then all I can say is "were not worthey"!
     
  16. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    I will be taking some photos of the Component out vs SDI out of the 27A in the next few days.....

    Hopefully the photos will be good enough to see the difference. Believe me i wouldn't go to the effort it has taken to get this working, it was tricky and if Arcam new about it they would be surprised it works ;)
     
  17. Cool-hand

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    Hi

    1, If the mod is made directly after the MPG decoding does this mean any of the above players will work equally well.
    Ie. may as well buy the cheapest as the dac and output stage are made redundant now?

    2, Would the lumagen scaler convert and output in prog scan both ntsc and pal material?

    3, Can we see more pics please of AVIA test screen with component and sdi.

    Rgds

    S.
     
  18. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Andy,

    One thing I have learned from these events and demos is that one person's "obvious difference" is another's "very little noticable difference". Also, improvements that seem relatively minor at first can seem more and more important the longer, or more often, you experience them (hi-def films for me - the hi-def video material immediately looked far better, but initially I didn't think the films looked that much better. Now whenever I see hidef film I think "wow!").

    The only thing I can recommend is an extended demo and find out for yourself if you think it's worth the money. We all know how to navigate the Guildford one-way system and get to PJ hifi now :).

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  19. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    Snowman: In theory yes all the mods should react the same on all the players. However we all know this is not always the case due to better transports / case chassis in the higher end players.

    For me i wanted the best audio performance, hence modifying the DV27a.

    The Lumagen will scale the SDI to whatever resolution and refresh you require as well as having memory banks for PAL and NTSC with auto detection.

    And Liam is quite correct, everyones perception of the improvement is different for me it is worth every penny, but then i am putting it into an HD Leeza and on to a 9inch CRT and want THE BEST from DVD material. Needs to be good as i am soused to my HD ;)

    Once my DVE disc arrives i will put the mod through its paces :D
     
  20. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
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    Good on ya! with pics too.....
     
  21. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Personally I find the difference between my SDI and Tag to be small as 'shown' at the demo but it is important to me but I am a bit of an obsessive at pushing the boundries :). Unfortunately my cheap and chearful SDI has poor sound in comparison so this Arcam looks REALLY good for me. It is a stunning player to start with and now SDI :) This is a very welcome step forward however component vs SDI will be much closer but I will always take SDI given the chance.

    Good work Elliot :)
     
  22. X3ELS

    X3ELS
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    Hi Nic

    I really was surprised at the difference, its not huge but definitely noticable. I actually had 2 guys from the event come back to the shop while i was testing and i showed them, they were also surprised.

    Everything used the same cable, Belden 1505A with all crimped connectors running into Lumagen Pro and on to Barco **** 8.

    Component actually had a small amount of edge bleed (when looking carefully) and an effect that looked a bit like edge enhancement. Switching to SDI cleaned this up significantly and i would not go back after seeing this.

    One of the guys who saw it also wants one now :) Whether it will be any better than my Denon 3300 with SDI is another matter. What i do know is that it will sound significantly better.

    As Nic says, it is for people who are real perfectionists :rolleyes:
     
  23. lfletcher

    lfletcher
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    I tend to agree with Andy on this one. I found it very difficult to see any differences between the component and SDI outputs with the scaler demo. Im sure there was one but I couldnt describe it.

    Elliot (or anyone else), have you compared a DVD player outputting through SDI to one outputting via DVI (not PCs, but a stand alone player)?

    Shouldnt they (in theory) be the same or is one technology better than the other?

    Thanks
     
  24. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Nice one Elliot ;)

    SDI is looking more attractive each day to us CRT folks!
    Paul
     
  25. X3ELS

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  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Elliot has this right. DVI is just for progressive SD upwards. HDMI can support 480i/576i. However just because a products has HDMI doesn't mean they need to make it support outputting 480i/576i in that fashion.

    I've seen the new Pioneer HDMI outputting DVD in to 434. It was clean and sharp and allowed you to see how poor their de-interlcaing and scaling was. Better solution would be digital interlaced in SDI/HDMI out to suitably equipped scaler and then on to the panel.

    Andy: I think you missunderstood what John, Richard and I were saying. Difference with SDI to component is not just about how good the conversion from digital to analogue is in the player but also how good the colour tv decoder and analogue to digital convertors are in the processor. Lumagen use a very good analogue front end to start.

    I'd also point out that folk notice big differences using DVI in to their plasma's not just becuase its DVI but because the input may be set up for PC input (in fact I am sure most without HDCP are). This could mean a wrongly set gamma with the mid lights punched out. Some folk may think this difference is impressive (some folk like loudness buttons on hi-fi's). Certainly this is what I see when doing DVI against analogue with my HD-Leeza on a 433MXE. I have not measured this to confirm. I prefered the analogue input.

    Got to go get some work done......

    Gordon
     
  27. Cool-hand

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    X3ELS or anyone else, a questions please...

    Can you mod any dvd player? ie. toshiba 900e

    C.
     
  28. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    No
     
  29. fatrich

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    HI X3ELS or Gordon/Beekeeper
    i currently have a denon 1600 region 1 sdi modded player running through my HTPC/Holo3d 1 card which is excellent picture wise (no Chroma bug) but the audio could be better (optical only) if i went down the route of say the Arcam FMJ27 obviously the audio would be better but how would it compair picture quality wise with the denon 1600 ? using the HTPC route

    cheers

    richard
     
  30. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Audio would be in a different league, hence all the interest here, video should not be much different at all. You have the goods already, you also get DVD A etc etc. What Elliot has done here is to creat a great all round player unlike you and me who have access to great video but audio could do with some help. :)

    external de jitter boxes will help but Elliots solution is the best I have seen in the UK
     

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