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bi-wiring to do or not to do

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Andywilliams, Oct 29, 2002.

  1. Andywilliams

    Andywilliams
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    hi all
    could somebody tell me if by-wiring is better
    iam expecting delivery of mission m7ds m7c2 centre m71i mains the latter two which can be bi wired have demo unbi wired and they sound very good will by-wiring be for the better .
    many thanks gonzo
     
  2. Ian J

    Ian J
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    I've never biwired speakers for the simple reason that I've never had any that were biwireable but I have read the many comments here and the general consensus of opinion is that biwiring was invented by cable manufacturers to sell more speaker cable.

    Do a search on this forum and you will come up with some interesting posts.
     
  3. Andywilliams

    Andywilliams
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    thanks ian
    more pennys saved for my next upgrade
     
  4. Dodgey

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    Sorry to throw a spanner in the works, but I changed to Bi-Wiring and could immediately tell the difference. Cleaner trebble and lower, more controlled bass.

    The logic makes a lot of sense. Electronically, if you run a full range signal through one cable the high and low frequency signals interfere with each other. By Bi-wiring you let the drivers "draw" their current through dedicated cables. Sure they meet again at the amplifier end, but you have made the longest part of the signal journey a pleaseant one. The longer a speaker cable the more you lose, so improving this journey for the signal is always a good thing.

    Ultimately you would connect your speakers firectly to the back of your amp but that would not look to good!!

    Anyway -- I clearly heard the difference.

    Regards
     
  5. Andywilliams

    Andywilliams
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    dodgey what bi-wire cable did you use .which speakers have you got.
    gonzo
     
  6. sinister_stu

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    Dodgey,

    I'm not sure if your explanation is correct. I don't think that it is right to say that the drivers 'draw' current, the amplifier drives the drivers and causes them to move. In a bi-wired speaker arrangement, the amplifier sends the same signal to both of the terminals on the speaker. The HF terminals only allow the HF to pass and the LF terminals only allow the LF to pass. The only difference in bi-wiring is that the return from the speaker (usually the black terminals) has separate LF and HF signals.

    I am still undecided in the to bi-wire or not to bi-wire debate. That is just the way I see the problem.

    Stu
     
  7. GaryG

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  8. Lowrider

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    There is a problem with bi-wiring, as the impedance of the tweeter is a lot different than the woofer´s, you get phase shift, so you will loose more than you gain, not to mention the extra cash...

    Have you noticed that many very good brands are not even supplying terminals for bi-wiring anymore...
     
  9. WhyAyeMan

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    My opinion on the subject is that bi-wiring *can* offer an improvement, but it depends on a few things. Firstly, bi-wiring usually increases the detail and clarity in my experience, and makes the sound slightly brighter, and the bass more explicit. However, if your speakers already sound bright, then you could end up with too much of a good thing, in a manner of speaking. So whether you do it will depend very much of the characteristics of the system, and some speakers by their nature will benefit more than others.

    For example, a friend on another forum has tried bi-wiring but went back to single wiring on his Arcam + Mission combo, he said it made the sound a little too refined on his system.

    On my system, I had my Wharfedale Diamond's biwired on my old Cambridge Audio amplifier. The improvement was noticable, opening the speakers out very nicely. I have since bought a new amp and for the time being at least I am back to single wiring, and the sound is ever so slightly shut-in, an effect that bi-wiring will cure completely, as I know from experience from the last time.

    However, I think that the major reason for improvements is replacing the metal jumpers on the loudspeakers. Therefore I concur that a small piece of high quality speaker cable linking the terminals on the speaker will have more or less the same effect IMO.
     
  10. Andywilliams

    Andywilliams
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    so whats being said is try bi-wiring out and see how it sounds .then try unbiwired then make my own mind up.
    thanks for your opinions
    gonzo
     
  11. Lowrider

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    What is beeing said is: replace the supplied shunts with speaker wire (same you use), that will be an improvement for sure, I 100% agree...

    Bi-wire might improve in few cases, poor crossover comes to mind, but usually you gain nothing, on the contrary...

    I wouldn´t bother even trying... :rolleyes:
     
  12. Inukjuak

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    I just polished my car with some Autoglym super resin polish and it goes much faster now. :rolleyes:


    gonzo,

    I tried it on a pair of speakers once, didn't make a jot of difference, but this doesn't mean bi-wiring won't make a difference to your speakers, try it, only you can make the evaluation of whether is is better /worse/no change. ;)
     
  13. Dodgey

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    Sure. I used the word "draw" to try and highlight that electricity flows (to the uninitaited) and is not simply "sent" to a speaker. Electronic devices effectively "ask" for the signal they want rather than it being "shoved at them". Turning up an Amp allows the driver to take/use more current. Anyhow, I'm out of my depth here. Someone else can explain a lot better why when bi-wiring the separate cables will carry the separate signals required by each driver! But I have read and understood it in the past.

    As for the impedance issue, bi-wirable speakers still have circuitry to deal with this. Bi-wiring dows not completely bypass the crossover circuit, it just bypasses the crossover section of it - if you know what I mean! The bi-wire plugs on bi-wirable speakers don't just go straight to the drivers or there would be impedence problems - and every manufacturer would add two extra plugs and sell their speakers as bi-wirable!!

    I use QED cable, don't know which because I got it from the bargain bin at RS years ago. My speakers are AE109,s . Whatever the outcome I know I have ended up with twice the thickness of cable running to my speakers which can't be bad!


    At the end of the day, get two bits of reasonable normal stereo "test" cable that does not cost too much and bi-wire one of your speakersand have a listen. It may rock , it may suck, it may just look good :)
     
  14. Lowrider

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    Or just use the two runs of cable to single wire, it will look as good and sound better... ;)
     
  15. Andywilliams

    Andywilliams
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    lowrider will try bi wiring if sound is worse i will twist up both sets of cables and use as normal speaker wire .do you know anyone who has done this with biwire.
    gonzo
     
  16. Lowrider

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    I would rather buy a better cable, but you can always get something like Kimber 8TC and split the ends, it will become bi-wire 4TC... Then you can put it back as it was supposed to be...

    Sure I heard of people trying what you say, and the ones that tried kept the two runs toguether, better than separate...

    Don´t forget to replace the shunts, as they are the only cause to bi-wiring sounding better...
     
  17. MikeK

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    Electrically speaking, the circuit to the speaker is the same, whether it's monowired or biwired.

    The only possible difference is the very slight reduction in the resistance and inductance (which is already at microscopic levels) of the speaker cable itself, caused by using two lengths in parallel. Along with this very slight reduction in cable resistance, will be a very slight increase in capacitance.
    All of these differences will, in any case, be several orders of magnitude lower than even the tolerances of the crossover components/drivers, let alone the values themselves - it's highly questionable that such small differences can actually be heard IMO.

    As for the signals interfering with each other along the cable - does anyone really buy that? :)

    The benefits of biwiring are just another hifi myth - at best a psychological effect, at worst a cynical ripoff!
    At least that's my opinion :)
     
  18. Dodgey

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  19. Lowrider

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    I know that link... ;)
     
  20. WhyAyeMan

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    Thanks for that link, very interesting, it has got me reconsidering whether to bi-wire my own system now.

    The airiness it spoke of on my old system was a good thing cos it was really shut in, but on my new system, I have no such problems. I think I'll just replace the jumpers on the speaker terminal with wire...
     
  21. Jonesthegas

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    I was thinking of biwiring initially with a view to biamping later. I have always presumed that it is a simple matter to move from biwiring to biamping (i.e. using the same cable connected to the speakers in the same way, adding in the extra power amp) but is this the case?

    Are there any disadvantages to biamping?

    Martin
     
  22. Lowrider

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    Apparently you will have the same phase problems.

    If you have 3 way speakers, there will be a defenite power advantage in bi-amping, with 2 way, as the tweeter doesn´t use much power I would rather buy a better power...

    Now active bi-amping with a crossover designed for the speakers, is a different story...
     
  23. Reiner

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    I have always presumed that it is a simple matter to move from biwiring to biamping (i.e. using the same cable connected to the speakers in the same way, adding in the extra power amp) but is this the case?

    Yes, should be no problem though you could of course directly jump from single wiring to biamping, too.

    If you biwire please do a listening test: "biwire" with the metal bridge in place at the speaker terminal (aka single wire with double cable diamter) and then the real "biwiring". I would be interested to hear any findings on this simple comparision ...
     

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