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Bi-wiring is it worth it ?

Discussion in 'Cables & Switches' started by Beegee, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. Beegee

    Beegee
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    Hi

    I recently bought some Mission M35's (which are great!) and I am wondering about conecting them up. I have a Marantaz Sr4400 Av amp which has only two front speaker connections but I can Bi-wire at the back of the speakers.
    So this would mean going from 2 to 4 as such but is this going improve the sound at all. I understand with normal bi-wire set ups that yes you are taking 2 seperate signals to the to seperate connections but.... :confused:
     
  2. recruit

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    I have always bi wired my speakers.The way i see it is that if the speakers were designed to be biwired use it and yes i noticed an improvement in the sound.. :)

    John
     
  3. eviljohn2

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    Rather than biwiring, I use a small bit of normal speaker cable to replace the brass jumper bar on the back. Equivalent upgrade for far less money :)
     
  4. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Many people feel that biwiring is an invention of the cable manufacturers in order to sell more cable.
     
  5. Londondecca

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    It can yield an improvement but often buying better cables gives more improvement.
     
  6. Mr.D

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    Its piffle. Save the money and buy some beer instead.
     
  7. CJROSS

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    If you have biwirable speaker, then do this this :

    single cable + jumper cables.

    http://evildonut.34sp.com/systems/lawrie/graphics/system_Lawrie_Signum_back.jpg

    If you believe cables can make huge difference and have £10/m to spend you have 2 options :

    Buy £10/m single runs and cable jump
    Buy £5/m biwire runs and full length biwire

    My cable costs £1.14 per metre and my speakers are single wire terminals.

    Biwire terminals are placed on speakers as an buyer expectation to cater for the latest batch of WHF readership fresh on the market, the best speakers on the market usually employ single terminals.
     
  8. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    Agree with you in general, but "biwire" terminals do enable biamping which provides genuine (scientifically founded) benefits. :)
     
  9. CJROSS

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    Evil, Say you have 2 100W power amplifiers, can you tell me why on earth say a treble driver load requires the same power amp spec as the bass driver ? Most PA setups are overkill for the treble load in a speaker the bass draws more current does more work and needs a heftier supply of current to do its task - yet the trbel always gets the same rating as the bass, purely a personal opinion, I think monoblocing an individual speaker is a better use of PAs but hey we all differ on our belief system. And I use 100W per channel towards my speakers from an integrated amp design - single wired speakers I should say.
     
  10. Mr.D

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    yes but bi-amping isn't biwiring though is it
     
  11. Nick_UK

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    I have been quite outspoken on these forums on people wasting money through buying expensive speaker cables that they don't need. I would, however, condone the use of bi-wiring, because woofer speakers can take a lot more current than tweeters, so some intermodulation could take place. However, I still continue with my stance that expensive cables are a waste of cash.
     
  12. recruit

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    It does depend also on the Quality of the kit you are connecting it to.. :)

    John
     
  13. eviljohn2

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    Mr. D, biamping certainly isn't biwiring but it does require the dual (or triple) set of binding posts.

    CJROSS, I've never tried it myself but personally don't think an even spread of power between woofer and tweeter would be necessary (maybe for mid and woofer).

    I would tend to agree that monoblocks are probably a better use of resources but these aren't always practical (space/plug sockets/funds). Adding a lower rated stereobloc :)laugh: ) to an AV amp to enable biamping would probably be a good move for example as long as the sounds matched (you could even tune your system this way). Heading a bit off topic now though :)
     
  14. Thunder

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    I used to biamp with a pair of 200w MF monoblocs driving the LF and a 100wpc stereo MF power amp driving the HF and found it far superior to the non biamp option :D I dont think bi wiring is beneficial though.
     
  15. dynamic turtle

    dynamic turtle
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    My 2 cents on the subject:

    I bi-wire my speakers because the amp has two pairs of terminals and the speakers have two pairs of terminals - so why not?

    It is recommended by both the amp & speaker manufacturers and I trust the integrity of both companies (to a point ;) ).

    My speaker cable cost £2.50 p/m ( :blush: ), but I doubt using a single run of £5 p/m cable would yield any improvements.

    On the other hand, given that budget speaker cable generally has poor RF shielding, I'm wondering if bi-wiring is simply increasing the interference level of my system? (TBH, I really don't fancy paying £50 p/m for heavily shielded cable, so I'd better get used to it!)

    As for Bi-amping, I can imagine the need for it - if you're using 2.5 or 3-way speakers with multiple woofers. I would recommend a Mission 753 owner bi-amp, given the fact the amp has to drive EIGHT woofers. That delicate treble signal must be getting knocked-about amidst all that bass!

    Also, I guess bi-amping would allow for system tuning - use a valve amp for a little more sweetness and a little less sibiliance at the top-end, and solid state for the all-important kick & drive at the bottom-end?

    Timing & cohesion would be a bit iffy, mind :laugh:

    DT
     
  16. Knightshade

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    Bi Amp - Yes - Benefits already mentioned.
    Bi Wire - If you want to but it seems very difficult to see where the benefit could come in. As the signal is still coming from a single amp.
    Most shops don't bother with bi wiring even when trying to sell hi end kit. That must say something.
     
  17. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    On a low-impedance circuit, the level of pick up is so minimal that it can be discounted. Unless some idiot puts his mobile phone right on the wire, then you might hear something :laugh: You can remove any stray signals with a couple of turns of the wire through a ferrite ring, which shouldn't cost more than a couple of quid.
     
  18. dynamic turtle

    dynamic turtle
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    So why are (high quality) interconnects so heavily shielded against rfi/emi? Do they run on "high-impedence" circuits then, or are they just over-engineered to look good?
     
  19. Hallsy

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    This is a subject I have been interested in also.
    Personally, when there are 1 pair of binding posts from the amp, I can't see the benefit of running two pairs of cables from the amp to the two pairs of binding posts on the speaker. At the end of the day, surely all you are doing is reducing the resistance of the cable and possibly getting a slightly better signal due to this?? I can understand when there are two pairs of connections at the amp, but not when there is only one.
    Also, how does using a speaker cable jumper, rather than the copper/brass jumper make any difference? Surely the resistance difference of the jumper against the speaker cable is virtually non existent.
    Bi-amping though, that's a different story!!
     
  20. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Over-engineered. Low-impedance wiring rarely picks up interference, except in cases where a badly designed amp carries interference picked up by speaker cables back into front-end circuitry. Such pickup is easily removed by the use of a cheap ferrite ring.
     
  21. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    The reason is that the two pairs of wires feed different speakers. Low frequency speakers consume a lot more power than high frequency speakers. We know (from Ohm's Law) that a high current in a given resistance causes a voltage drop. So when the bass speakers are consuming a lot of power, it can reduce the power going to the high frequency speakers, and cause a sort of intermodulation effect. It is really only noticeable on high-power speakers, so the value of using it on small speakers is debatable.
     
  22. David_of_Surrey

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    I post this somewhere else on here but forget where. according to the discussion on this web site

    http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page1.html

    Bi-wiring actual does change the sound, quote from conclusion on site


    "The above results imply that bi-wiring may alter the frequency response and that, when using a very simple speaker system with an impedance of around 8 Ohms, this variation may be of the order of 0·1 dB when using cables whose series resistance is around 0·1 Ohms. Thus, in principle, it seems possible that bi-wiring may alter the system’s frequency response"

    Dave
     
  23. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    I don't see how this can be the case when the wires are still connected to the same terminal at the amp end, even the most basic electronics dictates that you can't split an identical signal along the same transmission line simply by dividing it into 2. The effect is no different to having a single length most of the way to the speaker, then doubling it up at the very end. You aren't seriously trying to suggest that the signal won't be equally divided at this connection? This is the reason that replacing the jumper bars with a bit of speaker wire has the same effect in my experience.

    Hallsy, the jumper bars provided with some speakers are merely gold-plated brass which is a comparatively poor conductor rather than the copper used in speaker cable. The difference will be minimal but for the financial outlay I think it's probably worth the effort. :)
     
  24. Nick_UK

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    I suggest that you go and read Ohm's Law, and the excellent link provided by David_Of_Surrey ! Basically what you are saying is that we're all wasting our time having ring-mains fed by thicker wiring - heck, we could wire our entire houses up with bell wire, after all, it all comes from the same fuse box, doesn't it ? Of course the lights won't go dim when you plug the kettle in :laugh:

    Then you go on to say that replacing a 2" brass link with a copper one is going to make a difference. Excuse me while I laugh my :censored: off :laugh:
     
  25. eviljohn2

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    I'm perfectly familiar with several forms of Ohm's Law thank you :)

    Using your power cables example, I'm suggesting that once you have a cable that's rated for the correct current then making it thicker doesn't produce any further improvements. Up to this point then obviously there will be differences (notably with respect to the safety of the house in question!).

    Speaker cable is plenty thick enough for it's intended purpose so I don't see how doubling the diameter again will produce further improvements :confused:

    I've read the link provided earlier but IMO the model is far too simple and I'd be interested to see the programs they used for the simulation.
     
  26. Londondecca

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  27. Peridot

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    Ohm's Law, in it's simple 'VIR' form has little relevance to loudpeaker circuits.

    ______________________
    Dermot
     
  28. Nick_UK

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    Care to explain why ? As far as I'm aware, the laws of physics apply everywhere.
     
  29. Peridot

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    Well the relevant laws apply everywhere they are relevant, and I'm sure you know that Ohm's Law is directly relevant to d.c. circuits only.

    Any attempt to apply the principles to loudspeaker circuits requires consideration of the various capacitive and inductive reactances in the system, as discussed in the articles quoted.

    Although the frequencies and power levels in speaker circuits render them less vulnerable to some of the esoteric effects claimed to affect other system interconnections, the typical length of the circuits and the complex interdependence of system impedances, supports the view that different cables, and cabling schemes, will lead to real differences in performance.

    ____________________________
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  30. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    They do, but Peridot is right. The VIR form isn't really applicable here, you'll need the Point Form of Ohm's Law.
     

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