Bi-amping with integrated amps

lesg

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Hello.

I have a Marantz CD52 MkII SE player and two marantz PM 6010 integrated amplifiers (which do not have pre-outs but can be used as a direct source ). My speakers are bi-wireable.

Is it possible to use this setup in some form of bi-amping arrangement without needing a power amp?

Thanks, Les G:confused:
 
Hi Les,

I'm no expert as I haven't bi-amped. However, I suspect you'll be able to do it by connecting cdp to amp 1 and connect amp 1 from the tape output to amp 2. Connect each amp to the treble and bass respectively. Only snag I see is you'll have to use both volume controls on the amps. As the amps are the same should be ok. However, cdp output is likely to be higher than tape output from amp 1. Try it and see. I don't think you can cause any damage by trying what I've suggested. Report back with your findings please.
 
Doesn't the OP need some kind of crossover in front of the amps?

Otherwise, he'll be sending a full-range signal to the tweeter, which may be disastrous....
 
Doesn't the OP need some kind of crossover in front of the amps?

Otherwise, he'll be sending a full-range signal to the tweeter, which may be disastrous....

It's an interesting point that you raise. As I say, I'm no expert on bi-amping. However, bi-wiring sends the same full frequency signal to the tweeter as well as the woofer. It is my understanding that the tweeter and woofer just get on with producing the frequencies they are capable of. I've never heard or read of the signal being frequency split before sending to the speakers via separate amps.
 
First, can we assume you are using the crossovers built into the speakers? That seems reasonable. If this is true, then it is no different than any other speaker, you send full range, and the passive crossovers in the speakers sort it out.

However, if you don't have pre-amp outputs on at least one of the amps, there is really no way to synchronize them.

In my case, I have an Onkyo TX-8255 (50w/ch) and a Yamaha RX-797 (100w/ch). I only need one for music, but I like to run them both for movies. The Onkyo drive two 12" three-way speakers, and the Yamaha drives two tower speakers with twin 8" woofers each.

That is different than what you want to do, but the principle is the same. I pre-amp out of the Yamaha into the CD input on the Onkyo. Then I play some music, and BALANCE the speakers by bringing the volume up on the Onkyo until it matches the levels of the Yamaha. FROM THAT POINT ON, volume and tone are controlled by the Yamaha. The Key Point being that the Yamaha controls the volume for BOTH AMPS, and the volume of the respective amps stays synchronized.

Now, you could simply split the signal from your Player and feed both the Integrated amps you have, but how to you keep the volume balanced. If you raise the volume on the amp driving the bass, then you have to re-adjust the volume on the amp driving the tweeters. This is not a very smooth or accurate process.

There is a microscopic chance that a single remote control will control both amps simultaneously, which would be sweet if it worked, but I'm not so sure it will.

To really make this work, one amp has to be the master (Pre-Amp Outs) and the other amps has to be the slave. Other methods might work, just not very well.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Thank you all for your input. I'm debating whether to try splitting the signal from the player. Do you think that this would weaken the signal and/or defeat any benefits that bi-amping has? The only other solution would be to buy another amp that has pre-outs and set up as suggested.

I can't help thinking that there must be an advantage in using matched amps, like the Marantz. Do you think that splitting the signal would give me any benefits in sound quality? Failing that, I don't know what I would need to add to the system to enable me to use the two Marantz and also produce better sound reproduction than using a single amp.
Les
 
It's an interesting point that you raise. As I say, I'm no expert on bi-amping. However, bi-wiring sends the same full frequency signal to the tweeter as well as the woofer. It is my understanding that the tweeter and woofer just get on with producing the frequencies they are capable of. I've never heard or read of the signal being frequency split before sending to the speakers via separate amps.

It's sending a full frequency signal to the tweeter TERMINAL, but not necessarily to the tweeter itself.

It's my understanding that if you don't filter out the low end, you'll blow the tweeter; it just can't handle the LF. That's why you have a CROSSOVER in a passive speaker box. From Wikipedia;

"Audio crossovers are a class of electronic filter used in audio applications. Most individual loudspeaker drivers are incapable of covering the entire audio spectrum from low frequencies to high frequencies with acceptable relative volume and lack of distortion so most hi-fi speaker systems use a combination of multiple loudspeakers or drivers, each catering to a different frequency band. Crossovers split the audio signal into separate frequency bands that can be separately routed to loudspeakers optimized for those bands."
 
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Hello.

I have a Marantz CD52 MkII SE player and two marantz PM 6010 integrated amplifiers (which do not have pre-outs but can be used as a direct source ). My speakers are bi-wireable.

Is it possible to use this setup in some form of bi-amping arrangement without needing a power amp?

Thanks, Les G:confused:

Is there a need to bi-amp, for example are your loudspeakers very power hungry?

Unless there is a requirement for much more headroom in the power department I would stick with the one amplifier myself.
 
Why are you even talking about this?

Don't waste your time. Just buy a better amp rather than faffing around with this.
 
Thanks again.

Mr Pig, I believe we are talking about this because, as a relative novice, I am seeking the advice from my more knowledgable peers. That's the way people like me learn, surely? If I went into a local hi fi shop I would probably be told I need to buy whizzo gizmos A, B & C which I can't afford. As it is, I'm trying to get the best result with fairly limited resources. Forums like this help inumerable novices like me with helpful, sound advice, just as I have done with my photographic knowledge over the years.

Thank you.
Les
 
Yes, you can split the signal from the Player, and no it wouldn't affect the sound quality or signal levels. The signal from the Pre-out of my Yamaha is split and one leg feeds the Onkyo and the other leg goes back into the Yamaha power amp inputs.

But again, to change the volume, you will have to adjust your bass and tweeters separately, I recommend setting the bass first, raise or lower the bass until it is at a volume you want to listen to. Then raise or lower the tweeters to best match the level of the bass.

This can be done as an experiment, but it seem risky in the long run, especially if you invite your drunken stupid friends over, and let them take control of the stereo. That is a recipe for disaster, but then drunker stupid friends always are.

Assuming you are not yourself drunk or stupid, this might be worthwhile experiment, but unless you live something of a solitary life, I don't see it as a workable long term solution.

As Mr. Pig says, in his indelicate way, either upgrade one of the amps to an amp that has Pre-Amp outs, or sell them both and buy one good amp. Indelicate as it was, it was not bad advice.

Steve/bluewizard
 
I am seeking the advice from my more knowledgable peers. That's the way people like me learn, surely?

Yes it is Les. That's why I'm saying don't waste your time on something that will make very little difference, if any, if you can get it to work, and just buy a better amplifier.

The quality of the amplifiers will remain the same no matter how many of them you have. You can't make a Ferrari out of two VW Golfs. If you sell them and buy a good quality stereo amplifier your sound quality will move forward. How much do you reckon your amps are worth and could you add any more on top of that?
 
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to look into selling both amps and buying a better integrate or maybe a pre & power amp combination. Assuming I have around £500 to spend (probably on second hand gear) which way would you recommend I go and what make/model would you recommend to get a significant improvement on my Marantz PM6010?
:lease:
Les
 
Naim Nait 5i or 5i-2. Can be had for 500 or just over. Good start for you and also much better than the Marantz, also good upgrade potential
 
Or better still an old Naim pre-power. You should be able to get one for under £500 if you look hard enough.
 
Or there is that...

Gonna cost 400-500 for that too... From the looks of it. NAC 32/42/62/92 and NAP 90 combo in your price range perhaps?
 
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Thanks for the suggestions. Looks like I'll have to wait until after Christmas - might be some more gear for sale after the present opening?
 

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