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Bi-amping - Denon 3801 & Arcam 8P

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Jase, Jul 2, 2001.

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  1. Jase

    Jase
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    Does anyone know if its possible to bi-amp my speakers(KEF RDM 1)with the above mentioned Amps. Currently i have them bi-wired to the 3801. I want to purchase the Arcam power amp and would like to run the tweeters with the Denon and the mid/bass with the Arcam.

    Or would i be better off just bi-wiring the Kefs with the Arcam??

    Any thoughts??

    cheers
    jase
     
  2. Guest

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    Hooty,

    you'd be much better off using the power amp to drive the tweeter with the Denon controlling bass/mid frequencies,

    high freq is harder to produce than low freq - there's less for the arcam to worry about, e.g. power supplies etc.

    Check the gain is compatitable and if you can stretch to it get a 10P a top power amp, you can pick up for about GBP£499

    Regards, Daag
    ;)
     
  3. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    The suggested power amp for the AVR100 is the newer 85P. It has the correct gain and power output.

    Rick
     
  4. Reiner

    Reiner
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    Isn't it the other way around, i.e. lower frequencies are harder to drive?
    Actually i am sure about that, so the Denon should drive the tweeters and the Arcam the mid/bass drivers.

    However you may need to check if the Denon won't disable the internal amplification if you connect the pre-outs, if, bi-amping would not work.
     
  5. Jase

    Jase
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    Thanks guys.

    I have to agree with Reiner, i thought the lower frequencies were harder to drive, i´ll have to check whether connecting the pre-outs doesnt disable the internal amps.

    I know on my old Yammie 795 it doesnt as weve got that in another room with its rear preouts connected to a yammie 495 for pseudo EX.

    Anyone got any any suggestions for better power amps?? I only thought of the Arcam as its cheap, could always stretch the budget for bigger & better stuff :D

    cheers
    jase
     
  6. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Arcam recommend using the beefier amp for the bass (John Dawson explained this for me a couple of years ago when I added an 8P to my AV50). However, once you get to more powerful amps like the 85P and 10P I don't think you'll notice too much extra difference having them bi-amped with something else (although they do make a good upgrade for something less powerful). Er, not sure if that made much sense. What I mean is that 85P+85P bi-amped won't make much difference in most circumstances (because a single 85P is powerful enough to cope with most speaker loads) - maybe a small amount, but it's up to you to decide if it's worth doubling the cost. But a 85P replacing the power amps in an AVR100 may make a significant difference. You can then either use the AVR100 for the tweeters (bi-amping with the 85P on bass), or just use the 85P and allow the AVR100 to only have to drive 3 channels (which its power supply should then have an easier time with).

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  7. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    USage of the power amp depends on how your speakers are setup, and what you listne to most.

    For music setup's it's suggested that you use the power amp for the tweeter, so that you can get all the detail possible.

    Whereas for home cinema, if your fronts are set to large, you are best off using the power amp for the bass since it will need a large power reserve for the low bass.


    Rick
     
  8. Jase

    Jase
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    At the moment all speakers are set to small, all bass directed to the sub.

    The RDM 1´s only go down to 100hz.

    I use it 50/50 for cine/music.

    So, in this particular case would the power amp be better suited connected to the tweeters?

    There now seems to be conflicting answers!

    cheers
    jase
     
  9. slingshot

    slingshot
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    Uhmm not sure why everyone is going on about an AVR1000 you said at the top that you want to biamp with a Denon 3801.

    I'd definatley say let the 8P do the mid and bass and the Denon the Tweeter, however the main problem is that both amps are unlikely to have identical gain's on their inputs (since they are from different manufacturers), if they don't have identical gains then you are going to get more treble than bass or vice versa. You'd need to check the gains of both amps. I've got an Arcam 9P so I can check the gain on that tonight if you need it (but I think they are also listed on the Arcam web site)

    Hope this helps

    Slingshot

    P.S. you could always get the 8P and use it to drive both speakers single wire if you think it improves stereo listening.
     
  10. Gary Palmer

    Gary Palmer
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    Hooty,

    Unless I misread your post you may need to be careful.

    Somehow people latched onto the Arcam AVR100 but you're talking about the Denon 3801...

    If you biamp the Denon's internal amp with the Arcam power amp you must make sure that the gain of the Arcam amp is identical to the Denon otherwise you will get a bass or treble boost depending on which speaker you drive with the amp with higher gain.

    If you can't find out the gain of the internal power amp you could use two Arcam amps with y-connectors on the line level inputs. The internal Denon amp is then redundant.

    If the Denon has pre-out's and main-in's (my old one did) you could then use the "abandoned" internal Denon amp to biamp the centre channel.......

    Cheers
    Gary
     
  11. Jase

    Jase
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    Thanks guys, I didnt realise the gain of the amps had to be the same, it never even ocurred to me!!!, i´ll check out the manual of the Denon later & see what it says.

    I´ve just been offered an ex-demo Arcam FMJ P25 (3 ch) for 750 quid any good (providing the gains match!!)

    Or i´ll just forget about using the Denons internal amps.

    thanks again for all your help

    all the best
    Jase
     
  12. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Oops, yes, sorry Jase for not reading your initial post carefully enough. Slingshot and Gary are correct that you need to be careful matching the gain.

    Rick, when you say "it's suggested that you use the power amp for the tweeter" can you clarify where, or by whom? The reason I ask is that John Dawson and Geoff M? of Arcam both recommended I connected the beefier amp to the bass and the smaller one to the treble when I asked a couple of years ago. Have opinions changed since then?

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  13. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Cheers for the response guys. I guess that John and Geoff's answers were for the specific setup that I had at the time, rather than a general rule.

    Once again I learn something new from this forum :)

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  14. Guest

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    I'm in agreement with Retro on this one

    I currently use for music only an Arcam 10 intergrated amp with a 10P power amp.

    I originally used the intergrated for treble and the power amp for bass.

    However my new dealer (I moved from Newcastle to Manchester) - Doug Brady in Warrington (whom I bought none of above kit from) suggested swapping it around when I upgraded my speaker cable.

    I questioned the chap why and he said if in that if you look through an oscilloscope at a music signal bass is smooth in the peaks and troughs which is very jagged, up & down, therefore easier to produce.

    I changed it over and I personally prefer it that way, more detail and sweeter.

    ;)
     
  15. Guest

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    Sorry guys !

    I missed a word or two out there (it's been a long, hot day)

    I meant to say if you look through an oscilloscope at a music signal bass is smooth in the peaks and troughs,

    whereas treble is very jagged, up & down, therefore easier to produce.

    I hope that makes more sense now.

    Regards, Dag
     
  16. Guest

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    I've made a right pigs ear of trying to get my point across and have it actually make sense!

    3rd time lucky, after that I give up!!!

    Because the treble was very jagged, up & down etc it is harder to produce than bass which is smoother.

    Therefore having a power amp dedicated to treble made more sense than the bass.

    Also the intergrated amp draws current from the pre-amp section, this obviously is not a problem in the power amp. So it drives bass and controls pre-amp, amp the 10P is trebel only.

    Well it makes sense to me anyway
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Liam,

    We do both....

    If you have an integrated amplifier and want to bi-amp with an additional power amplifier then you should use the power amp for bass/mid. Remember the pre-amp section is more important than the power amp bit. You want the power amp sections to get the best signal they can. So, let the integrated have the easiest job, hopefully allowing the power supply stages for the pre-amp to be less influenced by what the integrated power amps are doing.

    Now, if you have a pre-amp and power amp and you want to add a second power amp for bi-amping you are in a different situation. The pre-amp is now unaffected by what the power amps are doing. In this situation we would always use the best amp for the treble. We have found through listening that this gives the biggest improvement. In a three way system if you were to listen to a song only through the bass unit you wouldn't be able to tell what it was about. Through the mid unit only perhaps you could make out the words. Through the treble only and I think you could sing the song. Treble is the most important for our perception of the music, followed by mid, then bass, well at least that's my thoughts on the subject. As always it's best to just do the dem for yourself.

    Gordon

    [ 03-07-2001: Message edited by: Gordon, StereoStereo ]
     
  18. ReTrO

    ReTrO
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    Just something we've always done at work, and seems to sound better that's all.

    Rick
     
  19. Reiner

    Reiner
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    That actually (the higher power drawn) supports the general rule to drive the bass/mid drivers from the power amp as it normally will have more reserves than the integrated and hence it would not effect the preamp power supply which is usually shared with the power amp stage in the integrated unit.

    Conclusion: general rules do not always apply and you should always try yourself and connect the way you think it sounds best to you!
     

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