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BEWARE!! NEC HD Compatibility in Doubt

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Oblomov, Jan 25, 2005.

  1. Oblomov

    Oblomov
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    Unbelievably, it now appears that one of the very few plasmas regarded by the forum as being truly HD compatible, the NEC XR/XM models, may not be after all.

    On the one hand, Liam claims to have inputted 720p/50 and I had an e-mail from NEC UK stating that the XR3 did indeed accept 720p/50 and 1080i/50 via DVI.

    On the other hand, 720p/50 is definitely a glaring omission from the list of supported signals in NEC's "Model Information" booklet and now, in the "Mega Plasma Test" thread MAw claims that he cannot get an XM3 to accept this all important signal and he definitely knows what he is talking about (even if he does have a little difficulty reading manuals.....)

    So where the hell are we now?? I am going to wait for the 8th generation Panasonic, and then probably discover that they have some debilitating problem or other.......
     
  2. 406lx

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    Yeah it would appear that there is a problem with this screen now, hopefully MAW can shed some light on this in the coming days. Hornydragon is also doing a mega plasma test very soon, hopefully he can try this screen and issue some comments.
     
  3. MAW

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    I was also informed by NEC's leading distributor that 720/50 was OK, but the picture was weird in the extreme. It did display, but no amount of tweaking the settings made any improvement at all. To be continued tomorrow....
     
  4. jope

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    I have NEC 42XR3 bought here in Finland two monts ago. It is connected to Denon 2910 thru DVI and I can state with certainty that it accepts 720p and 1080i , both in 50 Hz and 60 Hz.

    Changing the signal type in Denon is very easy and the incoming signal type can be easily verified in the signal info window of 42XR3 . And the picture is awesome, both in 720/50 and 1080/50.
     
  5. Member 55145

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    just a quick question, who says the standard for PAL HDTV will be 720P @50 hz, 720P @ 60hz is the american standard, the UK normal PAL standard has extra lines so why does everybody think that the new standard wont? hell if they want to try and sort standards out, why not just go 720P @60hz and save everyone the trouble? personally I think the new PAL standard should be 1080P (Yes P!) @100hz!
     
  6. Loada

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    Sky (who will be delivering HDTV content, at least in the UK) have apparently said that it will be 720p @50hz.
     
  7. Member 55145

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    Well as far as I am aware sky hasnt said what it will be and its just everyones assumption that they will go for that, yes sky has a big influence but they dont write the rule books, all of the broadcasters and the suppliers have to reach an agreement, its no good sky saying they want 720P @50hz if the bbc and ntl/telewest(same company) say they are going 768P@75hz

    we just dont know whats gonna happen
     
  8. peezee

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    Here's what I've gathered from some posts on this forum:
    <Last update: 27-01 3:55pm>

    Mojito:
    -> plasma: 42VR5
    -> source: Pioneer 868 DVD
    -> connexion: 868:HDMi -> VR5:DVi
    -> "tried 1080i and 720p @50Hz via DVI and it went through without problems"
    -> "And I confirm again that VR5 works with 1080i and 720p @50. Tried with R2 and R5 disks (all PAL) in both 60 Hz and "auto" FRC modes."

    Loada:
    -> plasma: 42VR5
    -> source: Pioneer 868 DVD, R2 disc
    -> connexion: DVi
    -> "I've already covered it DOES support it (and no, it doesn't say it in the manual. The VR5 (on the "Signal Info" menu page) claimed it was a 1280x720 resolution signal at a V-Frequency of 50hz."
    -> "As promised, I tried a Pana S97 multi-region DVD player. Worked fine with R1 and R2 discs, 60hz and 50hz respectively, at 720p (with a VR5 via HDMI->DVI cable that came with the panel)."

    Jope:
    -> plasma: 42XR3
    -> source: Denon 2910 DVD
    -> connection: Denon DVi-> XR3:DVi
    -> "720p/50 and 60, 1080i/50 and 60, working without any problems"

    PauldepManager:
    -> plasma: VR5
    -> source: Iscan HD
    -> connection: DVi
    -> "I have got my NEC VR5 to work with 720p 50Hz via its DVI port using my Iscan HD"

    MAW:
    -> plasma: 42XM3
    -> source: Iscan
    -> connexion: DVi
    -> "I have spent 2 hours trying to get 720p/50 working from an iscan on an XM3 and cannot, but I can get a very very crisp 1024/768 at 75Hz. I can get a stable picture with the 3910. HOWEVER, I would NOT live with this picture. It is overscanning by about 5% horizontally and 10% vertically, picture sizes and positions are adjusted to the max in one direction to achieve this. And quite simply, it's not terribly good. "

    Plus this:
    Let's not give up just yet... :)
     
  9. Sulis

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    So far it looks anecdotally as if the VR5 is OK, curious that the HD version should be causing problems.
     
  10. jope

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    peezee, If you lost my comment on this thread earlier, I repeat it:

    Jope:
    -> plasma: 42XR3
    -> source: Denon 2910 DVD
    -> connection: Denon DVi-> XR3:DVi
    -> "720p/50 and 60, 180i/50 and 60, working without any problems"
     
  11. MAW

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    I've got a 3910 to test it with, will post as soon as. Bit of a nuisance if it won't work with an iscan. Perhaps Horny and friends can try it too.
     
  12. MAW

    MAW
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    OK, relax a bit. I don't yet know why the iscan won't work, but I can get a stable picture with the 3910. :rolleyes: HOWEVER, I would NOT live with this picture. It is overscanning by about 5% horizontally and 10% vertically, picture sizes and positions are adjusted to the max in one direction to achieve this. And quite simply, it's not terribly good. I've got Shrek running, something I normally never bother to do, and bseide it my kids are watching the Chuckle brothers on CBBC on freeview. On a PHD7, with an iscan, 720p/60 via DVI. There is no doubt which is displaying the better picture. 1080i 50Hz works 'out of the box', but is very slightly more 'zoomed'. I've got some digital pictures, not sure what they will show on picture quality, but show 'pause' zoomed off the screen, and the Denon set to 720p for the eagle eyed, and I'll take one of the menu settings if Y'all want.
    I'm having some struggle here to post the pics, but feel free to email me for the evidence.
     
  13. shreddy

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    Hi MAW,

    Maybe you could register at www.photobucket.com and put the pics up there?

    You can then link to them v.easily here like so:

    [ IMG ]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/shreddy_/HTPC/htpc_thumb.png[ /IMG ]

    (without space between brackets and IMG; photobucket even show you what the tag to link to the pic in forums is!)

    or just post a link to the album!

    e.g. here's one I shrunk to get the idea...

    [​IMG]
     
  14. cj

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    I usually stick with Panasonic but you guys have made me curious - I'm having a VM5 delivered tomorrow to see what the fuss is all about. I also have a Crystalio in my PJ room so will try and test out some HD resolutions for you all at the weekend.
     
  15. peezee

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    jope, yeah I did miss yr comment, thanks for "formatting it" for me, I've just added it to the list. ;)
     
  16. peezee

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    MAW, I'm sure you've already thought about this, anyway I suppose you've played around with the H and V sync/timebase on the iScan, maybe it was preset with some wrong values, which could explain the problems you' re having with it... :confused:

    BTW, I don't think you mentioned it but did you also try 1080i60 and/or 720p60? Just to check whether or not you're having the same probs as with 1080i50 and 720p50... :rolleyes:
     
  17. peezee

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    Some more thoughts on this issue (bothering me a tad, does it show? :D )

    I think it's reasonable to expect different behaviours re: 720p50/1080i50 video on different NEC models:
    -> they're not all same generation: gen. 5 for 42" SD, 3rd for 42" HD, 4th for 50" and 3rd for 61"
    -> the VM5/VR5 are 853x480 panels (i.e. 16:9 square pixels), the XM3/XR3 are 1024x768 (rectangular pixels), H&V timings must be different therefore they might react differently to 720p50/1080i50 signals in terms of amount of overscan and/or zoom.
    And things _might_ be easier on a 853x480 panel (it's a big "might", as in: [1280x720] = 1.5* [853x480] ).

    Still, we need to make sure the picture remains more than acceptable (similar to what it is under native res. for instance) when fed a 720p50 or 1080i50 video signal.

    <By "we", I must admit I'm thinking in particular of those of us about to pull the trigger on a NEC plasma... :blush: >
     
  18. MAW

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    Peezee, I have indeed checked 60Hz, it's pretty good. No FRC cock ups/clashes with internal processing enables you to turn on 60Hz in the service menu, sharpness returns, all is sweetness and light. The picture even fits the frame.
    I am also of the opinion that the V*5 models may behave differently, I am telling you how it is on the XM3.
     
  19. peezee

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    Good, thanks MAW for clarifying that for us. Hopefully we can get some more "data" on the VR5's behaviour, beyond the basic fact that it seems to work Ok with 50Hz HD via DVi... (which admittedly is a pretty good starting point if you ask me :) )
     
  20. MAW

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    Bit unsure about he overscan bit, it sounds like he might have the same problem but has not stopped to thin k about it.
     
  21. MAW

    MAW
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    Above comments referred to 60Hz from iscan. Just tried a R1 DVD, picture returns to proper size, but picture noise is totally unacceptable. This is DVI from an £800 player. I'm stunned! Now, I went back to the screen, popped in 'shrek' again, and a curious thing has happened. It played, normally, no silly zooming, fits screen perfectly, even the picture in much better. What's going on? I sent the 1st demo screen back cos it was weird, now I get this. I'll try the iscan again...
     
  22. peezee

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    :eek: Wow... very weird! Hope it's not again a case of "DVI is not DVI" where not all DVD players with a DVI output can be succesfully used with the NEC screens (as is the case with other plasma screens unfortunately)...

    Oh, the wonders of digital video... :rolleyes:
     
  23. MAW

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    It's definitely weirder in digital than analogue!
     
  24. Loada

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    As promised, I tried a Pana S97 multi-region DVD player. Worked fine with R1 and R2 discs, 60hz and 50hz respectively, at 720p (with a VR5 via HDMI->DVI cable that came with the panel).
     
  25. peezee

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    Loada, thanx a bunch for this additional trial with the S97; I've updated my "reference" post to include yr comments (prev. page).

    I think we now have established that the VR5 is able to display a picture from at least a couple of DVD players running at 720p50 via DVI.

    Since you don't mention it, I suppose you did not notice any picture quality degradation when compared to say 576i, or any issue with overscan (parts of picture missing) or weird zoom?... Did you check carefully for these possible problems (as mentioned by MAW)?
     
  26. Loada

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    Definitely no wierd stuff, nothing like MAW was talking about. As for overscan, if there is any, it's not enough to be noticeable. Gave MonstersInc (R1) an airing, it's a film I know very well (kids make me watch it over and over :)) and everything looked ok. I guess a test disc (DVE or the like?) will help here but I don't have one to hand.
     
  27. tradesman

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    The BBC films all broadcasts in high def format now the reason being if they dont the US wont buy the films american hi def format is 720/60 so sky broadcasting in 720/50 wont worry me for one but somehow I dont think they will
     
  28. docb

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    Looking at that from the other perspective, Sky broadcast a hell of a lot of US films/shows, that I guess will be recorded in 720/60. Does that cause sky a problem with broadcast in 720/50 or is it just a case of converting it?
     
  29. peezee

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    tradesman, the now official "HDTV Ready" label requires yr TV to be able to accept both 1280x720p and 1920x1080i at BOTH 50Hz and 60Hz. Anything else is just wild guesses and speculation.

    My "guess" in fact is than 100% of shows/live sport/soaps/news/... created in Europe will be broadcast at 50Hz, because that's how the whole video production workflow in Europe has been operating for decades - and will continue on with HDTV. And that's an established fact too (not that I'm particularly in favour of this, but that's just the way it is).

    As for movies, while you can buy R1 DVD's with 60Hz frame rate in Europe, fact is that the vast majority of DVDs sold in Europe (R2 DVDs) are also based on a 50Hz video frame rate (transfer from film).

    Another "guess" is that indeed, HD live sport/shows/soap originated in the US will probably be broadcast at 60Hz since this is how they were created. And since the HDTV-Ready label requires your TV to handle both 50 and 60Hz, I don't see any reason why Sky will want to convert US based stuff to 50Hz... :)
     
  30. Neil F Holland

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    Well said, Peezee... still incredible how few sets meet all the criteria... lots of folk adivising potential purchasers not to worry etc. etc. but I for one will not shell out on an expensive display with a view to doing the same again in a few years...
     

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