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Better PQ - TFT or CRT?

Discussion in 'PC Gaming & Rigs' started by gargoyle, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. gargoyle

    gargoyle
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    I currently use a 19 inch crt monitor which has served me well for some years now but quite a few times, I've heard that TFT monitors offer better picture quality and richer colour - can any recent tft converts confirm this?
    Also, are there any 19 in tft'ers who are happy with their machines and don't suffer screen lag? I ask this as I've been told that the larger screens are prone to this malady.
     
  2. amped2go

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    Not sure how many replies you will get for this Gargoyle as it has been debated several times, but from my point of view I did trade my 19" CRT in for a TFT and found the following.

    The response times are no longer really an issue if you buy a TFT of 12ms or less.
    The amount of space now free on your desk is staggering.
    Unfortunately the blacks on TFT's just aren't quite black enough. I found in s ome games I could not distinguish between cavern walls and the cavern or night and walls. There just isn't the range of blacks, though I belive x-black and other technologys are improving on this so I would want to test it first.
    Consensus some people can live with the compromises for the benefits while others would not give up their CRT untill TFTs win every category.
     
  3. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
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    agree with the above:

    + TFT's are more stylish, ecconomical with space, portable
    - more expensive, less flexibilty with resolutions, can have X amount of dead pixels and not be returnable

    + CRT's better picture quality, better resolutions
    - takes up alot of space, not really portable, not particularly stylish.


    ...... I stick with my CRT as the TFT's that match the resolutions I work in are extremely expensive ... and not as good a picture even then.
     
  4. AML

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    TFT's do suffer from slow response, but its getting better all the time.
    If you conect your PC to an LCD with DVI (like I do) you will never go back to CRT.

    Other benefits are size. My LCD is 30". Have u ever seen a 30inch CRT?

    Since switching to LCD i cant immagine going back to CRT unless they made a 40" CRT with DVi.
    I somehow doubt that will ever happen.

    As long as you use DVi, the picture quality is amazing. Much better than CRT which still only uses analog RGB conections.
     
  5. Ethics Gradient

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    its not quite the same
    - what resolution are you running on that 30" ?
    - whats its max res ?
    - whats it cost ( relative to a CRT ) ?

    afiak the higher res ones are £1,500 +
    The big resoultion jobs are £2000 - £3000 ... an equivalent CRT doing that resolution on a 22" screen is about £350

    what crt's have you been using - I run a 21" professional workstation monitor with vga / BNC outputs - and run normal desktop at 1600x1200 ( same for gaming )
    a 30" screen running at lower than 1600x1200 to me is not "Quality image"
    I have NEVER seen a TFT that has as clear and manageble picture through the colour range as yet..... and certainly not at the price level.

    ( just looked on several shop sites - and to run my resolution it costs 6 x CRT price for same Res )

    ....if I was going to waste £2000+ on a PC monitor, I'd get 2 (or 3) x 21" and double(triple) display which would be FAR more usefull and resolution wise a better display set up for working in video / photo editing for example.


    I do sometimes get the slight impression that you get a little 'over enthusiastic' over which particular item you happen to have bought or be running ;)
    Nividia GT cards , Intel CPU's ( 32 bit ) , TFT monitors :hiya:
    - nothing wrong with being happy with what you have got, but do try to maintain a little descrimination and impartiality when discussing the subjects .... I know its difficult in some areas where its more down to choice but we have to at least try to.
     
  6. Tejstar

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    I have a 19” CRT connected to 1 computer and a 17” TFT on another. Without doubt I prefer the CRT everytime, the only negative point for the CRT is the space-issue.

    However, I should say the TFT is around 18 months old so I imagine response times have greatly improved since then, therefore newer TFT’s may have closed this gap. I doubt the resolution would look as good as my CRT though! :p
     
  7. AML

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    Im runing my PC at 1600X1200. Also its max res.

    Cost is much higher.
    But how can u compare that with a non existing 30" CRT?

    (actually i got my monitor for a very cheap 500 quid. But most people wouldnt be able to do that.)

    CRT's actual size is usually 1 or 2 inches smaller than what its labled as. ie a 21" only has a viewable size of about 19" or 20".
    If U can afford it, LCDs are better in my opinion.

    Just look at Apples 30" monitor that has DVi-D and a pretty high res. (1920X1080)
    No CRT can do that.

    Face it.
    Even if LCDs are inferior technically at the moment, it is the technology of the future.
    They will continue to get bigger and cheaper while CRTs dissapear from the face of the earth.

    You say that you can have double/triple displays?. You can do exactly the same thing with LCDs.
    I dont see how that makes a CRT better.

    Your only viable real argument is that CRTs are cheaper.
     
  8. Ethics Gradient

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    I agree that CRT's will be replaced - but I think TFT needs to evolve alittle bit more first.

    for £350 you can get a CRT that will do 2048 x 1536 ... and do it well.
    21" / 22" is probably as large as I want on a desk .... depends how far you want to view it from, but a monitor is NOT a TV, it serves a different purpose as its for you to interface with rather than simply display on.
    Bigger is not necessarily better - there are ratio's of resolution vs size that become optimal for working with ( especially at close proximity )

    I can buy a CRT monitor that has a very high res and costs CONSIDERABLY less than a TFT ... I would not put a 30" TFT on my desk ... tbh its too big, I would have to mount that behind and away to be useable.

    ..... its a different matter if you wish to use your monitor like a console / TV situation ..... but thats generally not what PC's are used for atm.
    I would say its more of a case or being a desk based item ( especially in a business / work sense ) .... as I don't fancy trying to balance my manuals. mouse pad and coffee on the sofa arm while I look at the equivelent off a TV across the room.

    ..... on the same arguement of 'if you can afford it get TFT large screens' .... we might as well tell everyone they should be getting AMD FX55's or Pentium Extreme Editions ...... In Phase cooled cases with 6 disk 1+0 raid arrays.

    I just don't see the performance benifit - its more of a 'oooow look at this toy' and a space saver .... currently.
    CRT out performs them in picture quality and resolution
     
  9. overkill

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    This is getting worrying! :rolleyes: I agree with EG again! :D The resolution and refresh rates of current CRT's is better than anything TFT can offer - and that's coming from a household, again with both. The TFT cannot refresh fast enough for the sort of frame rates that's needed for games.

    Hence we don't ever use the TFT for games, just business apps. Which is fine as it saves desk space, and does, within it's limits, what we wanted it for. A large CRT (22") while massive, also gives massive screen resolution. A big TFT doesn't.

    On the space saving issue and development issue, while yes, TFT's are imrpoving (but not coming down in cost that much) CRT's are also evolving. Their footprint and weight has come down (my old 19" nearly crushed the desk it was on!) and image quality is now excellent on the larger screens sizes.

    At the moment CRT still wins on more points than TFT.
    Price
    Image quality (the Trinitron tubes are superb)
    Refresh rate
    Resolution
    NO dead pixels!

    Only major minus is still the size.
     
  10. Goose74

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    Er dont think so - I have a Sony W900 CRT monitor (24inch widescreen) which happily runs at 1920x1200 and higher. You cannot compare watching HDTV on my CRT to any LCD IMO at the moment
     
  11. gargoyle

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    Thanks for the input people :thumbsup:
    After much investigating, I've settled on the samsung sm1100df, a 21 in crt monitor - sure, its pretty damned big and I'm going to have to do a bit of reshuffling to accomodate its bulk but at least I won't have to worry about black levels, missing pixels or response times, and best of all, the resolution goes up to 2048.
    Pricewise, its not too cheap (£287) but at least I know what I'm getting and don't have to worry about any uncertainties.
     
  12. Goose74

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    I would do a search for 24 monitor on ebay mate - you can pick up a good 24 inch widescreen for the same price (half life 2 in 1920x1200 is beyond cool)
     
  13. HMHB

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    Blimey, I paid over £400 for my Diamond Pro 900 19" a few years ago, so I'd consider that a very good price. Many times I've looked at getting a 19" LCD but every time I've decided that I can't justify the price without knowing that it's going to be perfect for my requirements - 1 dead pixel would drive me insane. I may consider a 21" CRT though, I just wonder if the front to back measurements have decreased a bit since I bought this whopper ?
    P.S. I have 2 19" CRTs side by side on my desk !
     
  14. gargoyle

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    John, unfortunately, crt dimensions are the one constant that never changes - the average width/depth for a 21/22 inch is usually around 500mm.
    As for the price, £287 is a lot when your well skint!
     
  15. Pbryanw

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    I'm on the side of TFTs. The one thing that can't be disputed about TFTs is that they're better on your eyes. Since I bought a TFT the strain on my eyes has decreased considerably (CRTs have to refresh 75 to 100 times a second dont' they). Also I don't think you can get CRTs in widescreen can you? I use my TFT to view DVDs so this was essential for me. Also screen lag is becoming a thing of the past. I personally can't see any lag in games on my Apple Cinema. But I've read that this varies on the individual - some people are sensitive to it, some aren't. Last of all I don't have to play about with pincushion, vertical, horizontal alignment controls - my TFT fills the screen with no adjustment necessary. After going from a CRT to TFT I wouldn't go back.
     
  16. Garrett

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    Yes but how do you play 4:3 games or run other programs on a W/S.
     
  17. AML

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    Well a lot of PC games like Half Life 2 and CSS offer 16:9.
    I think more and more games are being designed to run on wide screen displays.

    I also still think that LCDs are better. Things like DVi conections being digital does make the picture quality so much better to look at. (its more than just resolution)

    New displays like the Apple cinema ones are designed with HDTV in mind and have the necesary conections and resolution for it.

    CRT monitors only have one function and that can be a problem for many people.

    Why buy a CRT and an HDTV when u can have one that does both?

    That proves that a TFT can be cheaper in the long run since more and more people are using their PCs as HTPC's.
     
  18. Garrett

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    It depends how many there are in the house if the other half wants to watch a film there is going to be agro if I playing games on the only screen.
     
  19. overkill

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    Er, they are? The VAST majority of people use PC's for business/games, & as I do, for the odd DVD when the wife / daughters are watching Corrie. HTPC's are a fraction of the market share. TFT's don't suffer from screen lag? Maybe they don't when paying a LOT of money, but again this is the issue that's being ignored. CRT's offer better cost v performance. Which, for most of us, is the major issue.

    When TFT's offer like for like cost and performance, and the dead (and very annoying) pixel issues are sorted, then maybe. At the moment they aren't even close, so it's CRT for those of us without bottomless pockets.
     
  20. Ethics Gradient

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    As Garrett and overkill have mentioned - only a small sectior of the market fits what you sugguest - ie the HTPC setup.

    Personally, I have found that a dedicated peice of kit is 'usually' better at a particular task than kit that attempts to do 'multiple' roles. If I want a HD display to watch films on, I am not intending to use my PC - as certain compromises will be required.

    I would assume that most of the types of people that use these forums ( being audiophiles and AV enthusiasts ) don't have combination Hifi's, combi dvd video's etc.
    They will tend to have seperate items that are matched to their ideal set up - rather than sacrificing quality.

    I would pretty much assume also that the general public don't all sit around the PC to watch DVD's ... they put them on a seperate player and TV unit ... usually with their surround sound systems in the living room.

    I don't know that many people that have their main PC clogging up the living room - either for aesthetics or for using without being distracted - so atm I don't see the PC becoming the 'home entertainment centre' with HD large wide screens .... at least in the main stream.
    The majority of TFT screens people are using on PC's are 15" and 17" - down to cost and practicality. One of the big advantages of TFT's are their space saving and portability .... 30"+ screens defeat that purpose by their very nature.

    Possibly with further technology advancements and a gestalt shift in the way people use and percieve computers in the office and home, 30" and bigger TFT or their sucessor screens will become common place - but at present they simply don't fit the sort of a role that would make them popular other than for 'novelty' value ( which is going to be a rather expensive novelty )

    Bare in mind that paper screens ( flexible screens you can roll up not much thicker than a A4 sheet of paper ) and personal units ( heads up displays ) will eventually be more readily available and cost effective .... and play a role in computer uses - especially with professionals .... so TFT's may not be 'the future' for very long ...
    ( we are getting closers to the wireless , portable , wearable units - combining telephony, video , professional services and mobility - you can already get wearable displays, but we are talking about them becoming more ergonomic, cheap and increased functionality )
     
  21. AML

    AML
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    It sounds to me like you all have it in for TFT's! :D

    No matter how nice you all make CRTs sound, I still wouldnt go back.

    If somone where to offer you a free choice of either the best CRT out there or the best TFT out there, you are all saying that you wouldnt go fot the TFT?
     
  22. HMHB

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    I'd have to see them both in action first to be honest. I would never buy a 17" TFT as I wouldn't want to be forced to work at 1280 x 1024 for text based stuff as I know I would find that uncomfortable. I currently run my 19" CRTs at 1024x768 and find that the best for me, so I would have to get a 19" TFT if I was going to have to work at 1280 x 1024.
     
  23. Ethics Gradient

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    no - I would take the best TFT - put it on ebay and then buy 2 of the best CRT's available and go on holiday in the Bahama's on the rest.

    I don't have a desk space issue - I want a functional monitor that delivers the best picture, size and resolution at the viewing distance I use ( approx 2ft )
    I play games , do standard office work ( excel and word ), use several telnet seesions at once, do 3D design and art work......

    That means useing a top quality CRT( or 2 usually ).
     
  24. gargoyle

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    Picked up my brand spanking new samsung 21 inch crt monitor yesterday and thanks to all the p.o.v's, on this thread, I've come away with a beaut!
    Sizewise, its pretty damned big BUT thats the only bugbear - pq is pin sharp up to 1920 res, no flickering, gorgeous colour, good price (£284) and lovely flat screen (even if it is in front of several inches of tube!).
    When I can buy a tft with all of the above pluspoints, I'll definitely pick one but for the time being, big is beautiful! :clap: :clap:
     
  25. goronwy

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    tft is beater on the eyes and better rez
     
  26. sleepyone

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    Just thought I would throw my own 2 pence in.

    Glad to hear you are happy with your purchase. But im afraid I just couldn't put up with the bulk of those monsters.

    I have a Philips 17" TFT thats about 3 years old now, it replaced a mitsubish dimond something or other. And i def wont go back to CRT.

    Maybe i have a super special TFT but blacks seem perfectly fine to me, never have any problem seprating out colours (Far Cry, HL2 and WOW just blaze with colour although i can only run them on medium graphics settings) nor any ghosting or flicker. I use DVI by the way and i dont go higher then 1280 res.

    Or maybe I just have never seen the high end CRT's that produce the results others here have seen, i have never spent more than £200 on a CRT, £450 for the TFT. But then even if i did see better picture quality i still would'nt buy one, space still an issue and I don't get eye strain anymore, except at work where i have to use a crappy 17" iiyama, not even flatscreen :rolleyes:.

    All you people must have huge houses or something :D
     
  27. overkill

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    ?They are? The res on TFTs is not better than CRT - unless you have one that I've not seen. My wifes TFT does my eyes in far faster than my good ol' (well fairly new actually :D ) Samsung 19"! Plus I can't read the screen while I'm using the scanner as it's below the direct eyeline! :mad:
     
  28. HMHB

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    Which model Samsung CRT did you buy ?
     
  29. gargoyle

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    - Sleepyone, unfortunately this is the major sticking point with crt - I do agree that compared to a slimline tft, my monitor is a monster - I can barely pick it up!
    However, when I can play games at silly resolutions and enjoy fast smooth framerates, I can accept its limitations but will definitely be a happy gamer the day tft has all the advantages of crt and non of tfts current bugbears.

    As for the monitor, it is a samsung syncmaster 1100 df.
     
  30. Pbryanw

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    "CRTs, or cathode ray tubes, work like this. An electron beam is shot at a phosphor-coated screen. Whenever the electrons hit the phosphor, it glows, producing images. The electron gun cycles through all of the pixels on the screen, refreshing each to maintain the image on the screen. This is where refresh rate comes in. The number of times per second the screen refreshes itself is the number of hz. 70hz=the screen refreshing 70 times per second.

    Refresh rates that are too low can generate flicker which is noticeable to some eyes and causes eyestrain. Headaches or nausea are common symptoms of eyestrain. LCDs constantly refresh their screens, just like CRTs. LCD pixels don't have infinite persistence so they have to be refreshed.

    The eyestrain difference is caused by LCD cells having far more persistence than CRT phosphors. When you write a value to a LCD pixel, it stays that way for almost a second before it fades out, while CRTs will fade out in milliseconds." ;)

    Though on the other hand no-one's mentioned the poor viewing angles which are the bane of TFTs. Maybe once the life span issue has been overcome with OLEDs then these discussions will become a thing of the past.
     

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