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BETA: Homemade Greyscreen result

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Paul D, Dec 31, 2000.

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  1. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I've just painted my screen (new plastered wall) with a grey paint. I got four match pots of variable shades of grey. I painted each shade in a quarter of the screen and left a square in the middle brilliant white. I found the darkest grey (no3) no use at all as it did give perfect blacks but in space scenes etc the faint stars also disappeared!. The lightest grey shade (no6) was fine for leaving brightness alone (although it did still darken whites) but didn't really make much difference to blacks. It did however help contrast in depth of the picture ie things didn't look as washed out. The next darkest shade of grey (no5) looked excellent on blacks also you could see most stars, etc. But it subdued whites a little to much. I compromised by mixing the lightest (no6) with the next darkest ( no5) and found this to be my ideal. You may find this to be to dark/light etc. After watching with a grey screen for a while with no white screen to compare, whites are more than exceptable due to the blacks looking so much better! ie contrast range. I have read about other people saying it gives a more 3D look (picture depth) and it is amazing!!!. Dark films were a pain and to be avoided ( aka pitch black etc). Even wild wild west is un - i say unbelievable!. Sorry for all the !! marks but it makes that much difference. People may have to use a primer first etc then use the paint listed below:

    DULUX ICE STORM No5 00nn 53/00
    DULUX ICE STORM No6 00nn 72/00
    These are matt emulsions

    Then just mix in equal quantities. :pAUL: (Tested with MT1z -700 ansi)

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  2. ROne

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    I have now finished my screen based on your advice
    and it has made a big difference. I followed your
    instructions and found that I coulf get away with
    a shade darker still and so mixed 4 with 5 for the
    final couple of coats.

    It looks superb, no wonder people don't follow this
    logic, most screens seem to be white and these are
    not good LCD maxium contrast.

    I have a seven foot screen 4:3, and sit about 11 foot back,
    I have fastened the projector to an AVF television bracket
    which fits spot on.

    The projector is located above my head and is placed upside
    down so I can get the throw lower to the floor without peoples
    heads in the way. (I don't know if you have had this problem).

    I'm thinking about carpeting the walls, I have done this in my office
    at work and its several properties, its warmer, darker and sound absorbant.
    I don't know yet because I am taking over my girlfriends house ....

    Grateful, ROne.
     
  3. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I've nearly finished my dedicated cinema room. And i have just started thinking colour schemes. I have put pillars on the side walls about every 30 inches or so (to help with sound waves etc)and was going to paint the walls a dark red shade. But sod it i've decided to paint the wall black with a space horizon type scene (stars/galaxys etc). Should look great after a couple of pints!!. I have already put a black felt suspended ceiling up. I'am hoping to finish the room by next friday so i can spend the weekend enjoying films/flightsim/f1 Racing!. I have done all the building work myself to keep cost down. £3500 approx upto now including all equipment (projector-DVD etc)and building materials. If i never see a piece of MDF again i will be a happy man!. I'am photo-ing each stage and i hope to set up a web page to display(show off!)it, and to encourage other people to have a go.

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  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Rone:

    Most screens are white as the bulk of them were designed for use with CRT video projection and for use in high ambient light areas. CRT's have lower light outputs but can achieve extremely good black levels due to there physical operating characteristics. So, the ideal screen for CRT is White in colour.

    LCD/DLP/DiLA can be extremely bright, but have great difficulty in producing black due to their physical operating characteristics. So, in order to help get black down to black their ideal screen would be "BLACK". Of course, you'd need a seriously bright projector to get any white......... So the ideal compromise as fulabeer and yourself have found is some form of grey screen. If done correctly you'll get better blacks and it'll still be bright enough to watch in a controlled light situation.

    The contrast ratio from the projector isn't actually affected. It stays the same. However, as there is less light being reflected off the screen itself, the ambient light level in the room goes down as well resulting in a a greater contrast ratio for the whole viewing exerience as the picture looks less washed out. Does this make sense? or are folk lost?

    All the best,

    Gordon

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  5. Metric

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    rone, sames probs with peoples heads, the projector has to go behind the sofa so has to be a bit off the floor so i have to kinda dip it forward to throw down...removing keystone use. Im trying to find a way to hang my plus from the ceiling/high up and am intrigued with your bracket suggestion.

    In addition...how do you guys line up the screen and the projector? projector first then screen?

    cheers
    Mike
     
  6. Gary Palmer

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    Gordon,

    I discovered a while back that my DLP projector produced a much better picture with the brightness level wound down much lower than when used for PC powerpoint applications.

    I guess this achieves something similar to the grey screen.... instead of reflecting less I project less ?

    If it's a true 'grey' screen it should not skew the colour balance so I imagine it has the same effect as reducing the projector brightness.

    Am I losing the plot ?
     
  7. ROne

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    Gordon, what you're saying makes complete sense, its just ashame that I think LCD projectors get an unfair crack of the whip because of people not knowing about the greyscreen improvement.

    Metric.

    I first tested various heights to mount the projector on the rear wall by stacking boxes until I got the optium height. I wanted to see the screen at eye level rather than lifting my head up.

    I have turned the projector upside down so the lens throw is downwards, meaning you can get the height without keystone adjustment. And most importantly high enough to miss peoples heads. I believe it to be okay upside down becuaes it is intended for ceiling mount and you are not blocking any air vents (they are on the side).

    When happy with the height, I projected a image onto the wall and in the dark masked of the image. I then painted in the colour as described by fullabeer. Removed the masking.

    Going back to the projector I noted the height with a pen and spirit level. Attacthed the bracket to the wall and put the projector in place. I needed some sticky pads ( I used laminated floor protextors B&Q) to lift the projector to the correct height as it was out a fraction due to my poor drilling.

    Voila. A more or less decent home cinema.

    I am painting the room dark violet with red black out curtains for the windows... I'll let you know how i get on.

    Thanks.

    ROn.e

    I got myself a AVF tv bracket from B&Q £9.99.

    [This message has been edited by ROne (edited 08-01-2001).]
     
  8. Metric

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    cheers, i dont have the ability to paint the wall as i have a fire place in the way, at the moment i have a roll screen that i pull down to view (though ive not viewed much coz of the hassle.

    Im thinking of making a frame and cutting up te roll screen so i cam surround it in felt, i will then just hang this when i want to watch a movie.

    My dad had a tv bracket, little bigger than my tiny plus but im going to use long full thread rods to attach it. Im gonna mount the bracket upside down...i want it as high and out of the way as possible...boxes...ingeneous [​IMG]

    Hope we get to see pics of your setup when complete

    Mike
     
  9. Paul D

    Paul D
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    A vinyl floor type covering would be ideal but i imagine it would be hard to get the right shade of grey (but you never know!).I have read on the AVS forum about some people dying a white cotton (thick/smooth) bed sheet grey, and then stretching this over a wooden frame. Maybe this might be an alternative for you because of your fireplace. I have not finished my room yet (I always underestimate how long things take!)but i will post the pics on the web. Web address to follow on completion

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    I have been reading this thread for a while now and am going to attempt to try a grey screen. I currently project onto white chippaper which is not ideal but does the job.
    Two questions though:

    1. Its obviously best to start off with light grey and work your way up to the darkest grey possible but what point am i looking to stop, whats a good picture to use to find out when to stop getting any darker?

    2.Im still fairly new to this milarky, what is keystone? I have a sharp xv-710p lcd projector.

    Cheers [​IMG]


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    Maybe i`ll go to the movies.....by myself!!!
     
  11. ROne

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    I think you're gonna have to experiment to find out what shade your happy with, look through recent posts to see fullabeer instructions, you need to get yourself to a B&Q to get a dulux mixing machine.

    I reckon I could go one shade lower than I am, I have mixed ICESTORM 4 with 5, I think fullabeer did 5 with 6.

    ROne.
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Keystone is the adjustment of the picture to change it from a trapezoid shape to rectangular when the projector is not installed at the ideal location.

    Use something like Video Essentials "montage of images" section when you see the undersideof the road bridge. See if you can actually see the spans underneath. Also use other dark lit scenes, perhaps some Star Trek stuff.

    I'd also go to the AVS web site at WWW.AVSFORUM.COM and see their screen forum. Ask what films produced the biggest difference with the Beta Stewart Greyhawck screen.

    All the best


    Gordon

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  13. Richard Harnwell

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    Thanks for the info fulabeer.

    I spent the weekend projecting (Sony VW10HT) onto large bits of card painted with Ice Storm 5 & 6.

    They do definately have the positive effects you outlined, but I'm wondering if there is a slight blue hue to both greys?

    Has anyone else found this or is it just me seeing things?

    Cheers,

    Richard
     
  14. jamiebgp

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    I'm also keeping a keen eye on this thread, I am so close to finishing my room and my LCD purchase is imminent, Either the Sanyo PLV30 or the NEC VT440. But do i really need to splash money on a screen. Would a roller blind do? if so what are the best and then how would i go about painting it grey, properly?
    If this does indeed work, surley an electric roller blind is a hell of a lot cheaper than an electric screen.

    Anyone
     
  15. Mr.D

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    Alternatively use the snell and wilcox zone plate on VE and see if you can disclose the central area from the surround in the dark square on the right hand side.

     
  16. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I agree about the blue hue on sky/blue objects. I just turned down the blue on the projector!. I was speaking to Gordon Fraser about this on Friday and I thought this might be down to my 10 metre S/vhs cable but if you have noticed this it may be the shade of grey paint!. I intend to try some other makes of grey paint so watch this space!. The positive improvements are well worth this slight hueing!....Paul

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  17. Jagular

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    You blokes gota be kidin, No?

    Why not follow Gary’s lead and reduce the light output of the Projector, then you won’t have the colour correction problems of using a Grey screen. You can then bring back the light level for ambient light or presentations when required, and Not have the expense of producing or buying a Grey screen! Yes?

    Rob.
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Rob,

    No is the concise answer.

    The problem is that when trying to output a "black field" the LCD projectors still chuck out quite a bit of light. So, even with the brightness wound way down so there is no information in the black sections of picture, the screen still looks grey as the remaining light coming out illuminates the white screen.

    With a grey screen the black levels are supposed to be much darker, even with the brightness set correctly. As LCD/DLP usually has an abundance of light output getting white nice and bright usually isn't a problem.

    If the screen is neutral grey then there is no colour balance issue.

    Gordon

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  19. Galaxy

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    Hiya Folks, I have only just discovered this forum, great stuff!......I have been using a LCD projector for film use only now for around 5 years, I started then with the NEC 15E which has a very low output and a very low resolution, but when using RGB connections gave a reasonable performance on a 5' screen, however I recently upgraded to a Liesegang DV340 this has XGA resolution and 1400 lumens output, an incredable differance but unfortunately it seems only "S" input, however I have been concerend with the black levels using the screen i had previously used (a bright white film screen) and after reading this posting decided to experiment. I used a 5' white photographic mounting board as a start, far too bright and black level was really bad, so off to the dulux mixer! ICESTORM 3....
    amazing.......brilliant, nice firm blacks and still a very high white level, now this may be because of the high output of 1400 lumens combined with the smaller screen size, but for me this projector is great, lovely colours, and good contrast range. I think I am qualified to judge the picture being a professional photographer, when eventually i get the room approved by the law maker! I will be projecting onto a screen size between 7 and 9 feet and from what I have seen so far it will definately be a grey one!...BTW the colour ICESTORM does indeed have some terracotta and blue in it ( more blue than red), next time I will ask them just to mix the pure white base with some black colourant and see the result, this should produce a very nuetral grey, although once the lights are out and the picture is running, the human eye is a very forgiving organ, it'll see whatever you think is there! so any slight colour variation will probably be lost to anyone but a trained colourist. After all this all I can say is, try it I am sure you will like it!
     
  20. dealmaker

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    XXX
     
  21. Gary Palmer

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    Hmmmm. Gordon speaks sense as usual :)

    Now I've gotta try this as well.

    I thought that because DLP uses mirrors it was able to create black much better because you're not reflecting light using the tiny mirrors rather than trying to block off light to create black using the LCD's cross-polarisation.

    But, I admit that plenty of light still leaks through the lens. So reducing the light level doesn't fix this.

    The trouble is that I use a pull-down screen. A grey wall ? My wife would kill me.

    How do you get a grey pull-down screen !!!!!!!!?????
     
  22. Galaxy

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    Dealmaker, My projector puts out 1400 lumens and is too bright for white wall at 15 feet!hence I resorted the the experiments with grey paint, with the results as above. Well thankfully the my wife thinks she saw grey coloured blinds when out shopping a while back, now all i have to do is get her to remember where! But if we can get them as dark as ICESTORM 3 is another matter. Unfortunately we have decided that the screen in our room will have to be at the window end so the grey wall is out,and I don't really fancy trying to hide an eight foot grey board! and now to find those blinds?......
     
  23. Jagular

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    Gordon/Galaxy,

    With the greatest respect, I don’t think you catch my drift.

    When I said, “reduce the light output of the Projector,” I am saying ‘stop-down’ the Lens, as indicated in a previous thread. The light reflected back from the white screen will have the same effect as that of the grey screen if the reflection levels are at the same value. As said before, the apparent contrast fools the eye.

    One way to do this would be to use a suitably large washer or something that won’t be affected by heat.

    Not only will the light output be reduced according to the size of the hole in the washer etc.. (Experimentation required to obtain the required amount of light) the effect of stopping down the lens will give an additional advantage of increasing the depth of field. Thus improving any inaccuracy in focus across the screen. Contrast will be unchanged. Obviously an adjustable iris would be ideal for the job.

    Is that not so Mr Galaxy?

    Anyone tried it yet?

    Rob.


     
  24. Galaxy

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    er....actually no thats not strictly true, if you put a diaphragm (washer?) in front of the lens although you will indeed decrease the light output to the screen you will in fact "bugger up" (technical term) the carefully designed optics of the lens, you will introduce aberration, a lens must have its diaphragm at the nodal point of the design, ie at the optical centre, to perform without introducing those aberrations. You could in fact end up with a screen that is shaped like a pincushion or a barrel depending on where you place the washer, the sensible thing to do would be to use a nuetral density filter, but this would in fact cut down the amount of light hitting the screen accross the whole contrast range, if you try to fool it by using a grey screen the blacks will be blacker but the contrast ratio will be greater because you are usuing the spectral flourescence of the paint to reflect the highlights, and the shadows will be blacker as the black pigment in the paint absorbs that end of the gamma curve. It is hard to explain, but it does work, hence the greyhawk screen. But if you use a dulux mixpot, it only costs £7.99p, ok so its not perfect, but it still looks very good and feels even better on the pocket! LOL
     
  25. Jagular

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    Sounds like you are trying to put me down matey, ‘which ever Galaxy your from,’ but have you actually tried it?

    Are you saying that Grey has a logarithmic reflection coefficient?

    You say “….you will in fact "bugger up" (technical term) the carefully designed optics of the lens,” but if that’s the case why do you have to “bugger up” (as you say) the manufacturers design parameters in the first place then???

    Ever heard of a pinhole camera?
    Remember how a ‘Catadioptric’ lens works?

    Don’t knock simplicity if it works. I’ve tried it! And it does! No ‘aberrations’ or apparitions.

    I have a CRT projector myself. It has a contrast ratio of 1000:1. I don’t need this conversation!

    Regards,

    Down-to-Earth.

    please note: I don't need to resort to this kind of thing on my CRT.



    [This message has been edited by Jagular (edited 01-03-2001).]
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Jaular

    Sorry read your post that said,"Why not follow Gary’s lead and reduce the light output of the Projector", then re-read his post which went on about reducing "brightness" and sort of believed you were talking about that post rather than another one on another thread! My mistake.......


    Anyway,I'm actually sort of with you. Reducing light output has to be a major part of the solution. Of course, the problem occurs with products like the HT200 where they have a fixed optical assembly and it's not possible to fit lens stops etc inside the unit itself. I'll bow down to your superiour knowledge and that of "Galaxy's" and ask if neutral density filters will help in this situation.

    Incidentally, on Friday I get my first play with a D'Ila projector..... Expect a post about it at the weekend.

    Gordon

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  27. Jagular

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    Gordon,

    Yes, neutral density filters will help in this situation but stopping down the lens can also give a crisper image.
    Putting a lens stop in front of the lens does work if it’s not too far away from it. The extreme will produce uneven lumination across the screen.

    Hope this has been of some help.

    Rob.
     
  28. dealmaker

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    HELP...anyone gonna give me some advice/help on my grey screen quest??!!

    I'm getting really worried that with 2000 lumens I'm going to struggle with a white screen (I don't know what the contrast ratio of a Sanyo XP18 is?).

    Does anyone in the UK sell a, sensibly priced, electric 7/8 ft GREY screen??

    Thanks,
     
  29. Jagular

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    Dealmaker,

    I have found this forum is a fantastic source of information and experience.
    What I do suggest, if I may, is - read this thread again, bearing in mind that not everything you read is the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
    Be very careful in interpreting the information that has been freely given. Experiment with your findings, and when success is finally achieved – REJOICE!
    As far as contrast ratios are concerned, it has become obvious that the higher the better. Problems arise when there is not enough contrast to fool the eye into thinking that the black areas are not white, as in most LCD/DLP divices. While this is OK for Presentation software, it takes Video right up to the very limit.

    Regards,

    Rob.

     
  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Dealmaker,

    As far as I am aware no-one currently does an "affordable" grey screen in the sizesa nd configuration you request.

    Your projector is very bright so the use of such a screen may indeed help give a more pleasing effect. However, there's more to replaying moving pictures thatn getting black to look black. I'd strongly suggest getting a look at your chosen unit before buying. If it looks good enough to you on the screen they demonstrate it on then you'll have your answer.

    Gordon

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