Question Best upscaler

Discussion in 'Freeview & YouView' started by Dodgexander, Jan 8, 2018.

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  1. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    Currently using a trusty Humax HDR-FOX T2.

    Output resolution setting is fixed.

    Any recorders out there yet offering dynamic resolution switching? eg SD channels output 576i and HD 1080i?

    Had a quick search and it seems not, prefer not to have two stages of conversion with my UHD TV. Want to avoid 576i>1080p from my Humax and then > 2160p from TV.

    If not, any recorders that upscale well from 576i straight to 2160i/p themselves?

    I had a quick search and it seems not, but just wanted to make sure.

    Cheers.
     
  2. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    Some offer original. However doing what you suggest has unwanted side effects.

    1 Every time you switch from a SD to HD channel and vice versa, there's a small hiccup as the TV adjusts to the changed resolution.

    2 The epg looks terrible on SD channels, because it's forced down to the lower resolution.

    I doubt you will see sod all difference anyway.

    Change to a SD channel say BBC 1. Look at the picture now look at the epg. Change the Humax output to 576i leaving the TV to scale all by itself. Now look at the epg. You could try 1080i leaving the TV to de-interlace rather than the box, though even that's debatable because most Freeview-HD is 1080p25 anyway.

    You should install the Custom Firmware on your HDR-FOX-T2 it transforms the box.

    HD/HDR-FOX T2 Customised Firmware
     
  3. Nathan Cooke

    Nathan Cooke
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    Yu cannot create what is nor originally there.
     
  4. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    Never heard of interpolation. By comparing adjacent frames it's possible to interpolate what's missing and increase the apparent frame rate. You can do the same by analysing adjacent pixels in a single frame to increase the number of pixels. DVD's played back on a blue-ray player and scaled to 1080p can look great on a good Full-HD TV.

    Photoshop image size and resolution

    If you have a full-HD or 4K TV there is no option, only way to get a picture is to scale the image to match the panel resolution. So if you are watching a SD channel on a FULL-HD TV it is upscaled as is a SD and HD source on a 4K TV.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  5. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    Thanks @grahamlthompson. Very true regarding the epg I didn't even think of that.

    I wish my t.v. had series record like yours. I thought that I may be able to move away from a recorder in this day and age but the quality of catch up tv it's just atrocious. iPlayer looks alright when HD but it's still not worth it for me when I can still watch recorded tv from the HD channels in much better quality.

    I actually have had that custom firmware running on my humax more than I haven't but in the end was forced to return to stock because it would occasionally freeze up. I wonder though if it's because of the new kernel though because I can see they offer the latest version available with the old kernel.

    I will try and compare, never had any complaints (crashing aside) with the human and it's functionality is brilliant but I just want the best pq possible. I think their deinterlacing and upscaling has been great.

    Apare from reducing the upscaling steps I also thought it would be useful to have refresh rate changes too. My old tv and this one work much better when they display 25hz motion directly without it being sent duplicated to 50hz. Errors with intelligent frame creation I think.

    I guess the proposed new hdmi spec may make it possible even to change resolution even if it's just for the guide.

    Right now though it looks like a box capable of upscaling completely to us may be the best option, do any exist with refresh rate changing with good quality upscaling?

    You can't, but I want it looking the best it can!
     
  6. Nathan Cooke

    Nathan Cooke
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    Of course I have. Interpolation can smooth out jagged edges etc but cannot increase the definition. You cannot create what is not there. If it could there would be no point in transmitting HD or 4K, or even 625, we could upscale 405 to 4K.
     
  7. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    Interpolation within a single frame can smooth out jagged edges (actually called interaliasing), we are talking about adjacent frames.

    Smoothing edges from jagged to a beautiful curve

    It might not be exactly what's there, the point is it can create a pretty realistic guess at what's missing. Without scaling no modern TV with a matrix mapped pixel display cannot function. The perceived resolution is increased.

    I know for a fact that SD TV looks a lot better on my Full-HD 47" LCD than it ever did on the large CRT it replaced, viewed close up the gaps between the horizontal scan lines were very visible. In fact my Brother In Law thought he was looking at HD TV despite the fact it only had DVB-T tuning and it pre-dated Freeview HD.

    Frankly you seem to be reporting parrot fashion what another poster frequently trots out. I have already told you that DVD looks better on a modern blue-ray player. I have a really good Denon DVD player that cost the earth years ago, I have a newer much cheaper blue-ray player and the same DVD's look a lot better played back on it.

    It's a pointless observation frankly. It's pretty obvious a source with 1:1 mapping to the display should look better. Despite that arguably the best pictures HD pictures I ever saw were the high bitrate BBC HD test HD satellite transmissions 1440 x 1080 displayed on a HD Ready Pioneer Kuro with a 768 line display. Perhaps you can explain how a high bitrate 720p50 source can look superior to a lesser quality 1920 x 1080 25 fps source. The extra frame rate more than compensates for extra pixels.

    In digital TV every frame in a mpeg group of pictures (GOP) apart from the I frames is guessed, The higher the bitrate the better the guess.

    Mpeg is lossy compression, the missing information is discarded. How do you think digital TV is possible ?

    Take a uncompressed 8 bit Full-HD frame. That's 1920 x 1080 x 24 bits of information (8 for each Red Green and Blue pixel).

    That's 49766400 bits or 6220800 bytes. At 25 frames/second that's 155520000 bits/second.

    That's a bitrate of 148 Mbps. An average HD TV channel using H264/AVC averages out at about 10 Mbps (work out the percentage discarded). H265/HEVC is more efficient.

    Compared to scaling up SD to HD that's an enormous of data to guess most of us think this works pretty well despite you posting it can't be done :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  8. TJT1

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    And upscaling SD to 4k is not too shabby either as per most channels on my 4k Freeview/sat TV.
     
  9. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    Guessing that's not a Phillips :)
     
  10. Nathan Cooke

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    That does not surprise me at all. The fact is that domestic CRT sets were never of the quality to display pictures well. A studio quality monitor is what you need to compare with.
     
  11. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    It was one of the best consumer TV's available at the time. A Toshiba 36" picture frame and it weighed a ton :). It had superb sound and had a built in subwoofer and supplied surround speakers.

    FREE - Toshiba 36" picture frame TV and stand - FREE | in Keighley, West Yorkshire | Gumtree
     
  12. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Same here, still using it, think it must be 8 years old by now.

    Going from 1080P to 4K is pretty easy, it was designed to be, which is why 4K is exactly twice the X and twice the Y of HD, so it probably isn't going to make much difference to have the TV upscale 1080P to 4K. I've seen no difference at all.

    Regards

    Phil
     
  13. Glenn2

    Glenn2
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    Agree. I have a BT Humax DTR-T2100 plugged into a 4k Panasonic (2016 model). The SD channels look just as good on the Humax (576->1080->2160) as on the TV's own tuner (576->2160).

    Note that the BT Humax DTR-T4000 box (can be had on the bay) has 4K output for the BT 4k sports, so can go 576->2160 in one hit. No idea how well it does it though. It would probably make the SD channels not noticeably better but make the HD ones slightly worse if the upscaler isn't up to scratch... but at least you'd have both settings to try. Do note though that it has a fan unlike the HD-only version which is super quiet.

    Cheers,
    Glenn
     

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