Question Best speaker selection in tight space for small home cinema?

Atomicus

Active Member
Have we established whether you will be using the system for 2 channel music or not?

Also, how fixed is your budget?

If you did want to listen to music, I would suggest a Marantz SR601x or SR701x as that would sound better for music, but pretty much identical to the Denon for movies / tv.
That should've said amplification! You could do it but the 3500 doesn't have enough quality power to drive them properly. I found in the big action scenes the sound became muddled, lost the clarity and sound stage the speakers can produce, still worked though. If you search on here I have discussed my experiences and those of others of adding a power amp. A two channel driving the front pair could be done for as little as £150, @Rambles will tell about behringer ones, and you can go up from there. The improvement in sound quality across the board with a power amp makes it a good upgrade regardless.

If you don't want to go more than 5.1.2 then the 3500 and a power amp will be your best and cheapest route. Power needs are the Catch22 with buying 'bargain' much higher quality, low sensitivity speakers which were originally a couple of tiers above your budget and AVRs just don't provide decent power for them until you are looking at ones that cost several thousand. The end result is well worth it though and you'll be happy for years to come.

Music will be listened to, but not the priority. Some wiggle room in the budget, but I can't really justify spending 3 times as much on the AVR... not at this point in time anyway.

The A800 on top of the 3500 would make more sense, and it seems essential if I have Atmos speakers. I did see the Marantz 6013 for £699, but but's very close to the 3500 specs, just marginally more power, so I'm guessing still not enough juice overall. It does have the extra channels, but I'm not sure I see myself going beyond 5.1.2 anytime soon.
 
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b1g1an

Well-known Member
Music will be listened to, but not the priority. Some wiggle room in the budget, but I can't really justify spending 3 times as much on the AVR... not at this point in time anyway.

The A800 on top of the 3500 would make more sense, and it seems essential if I have Atmos speakers. I did see the Marantz 6013 for £699, but but's very close to the 3500 specs, just marginally more power, so I'm guessing still not enough juice overall. It does have the extra channels, but I'm not sure I see myself going beyond 5.1.2 anytime soon.

You'll always see it recommended to add an integrated amp to an AVR if you are bothered about music quality and I don't doubt the guys who say it, I was recommended it as a good upgrade the next time I felt the urge to spend something.

What i will say though is, adding a power amp to my system massively improved the 2 channel music quality as well as giving it the legs for movies at their best to the extent an amp for music would now need a lot of convincing rather than seems a good idea based on the Denon is just OK for music if you don't know any better. Again, not trying to claim it wouldn't be better but for me music has a wow factor it didn't have before. Another member here added a multichannel power amp to his 4500 with similar results which supports @Rambles comment about the higher models not being a big step up in quality unless you want the extra features they have.

Don't feel you have to buy a power amp from day one though, see how an AVR on its own works for you but if you think somethings not right there's good chance there's a simple fix :)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Music will be listened to, but not the priority. Some wiggle room in the budget, but I can't really justify spending 3 times as much on the AVR... not at this point in time anyway.

The A800 on top of the 3500 would make more sense, and it seems essential if I have Atmos speakers. I did see the Marantz 6013 for £699, but but's very close to the 3500 specs, just marginally more power, so I'm guessing still not enough juice overall. It does have the extra channels, but I'm not sure I see myself going beyond 5.1.2 anytime soon.

That is good price for Marantz, PT has 850£! As you are building dedicated cinema room you should really think carefully about future. I assume you could opt for sidewall height channels in 5.1.4 configuration, or front/rear heights if you leave the required space / opt for smaller speakers (in height) as you are dealing with tight space height wise. You mentioned starting with 5.1 for now, but in the long run it would be wise to pick receiver which gives you more options. I bet when you jump with Atmos wagon you get more hungry and then want .4 sooner or later in your man cave! There is plenty of members threads to show how the 5.1.4 can be done even in smaller rooms. With this hobby never say never. :)

@gibbsy would it be good idea to combine the earlier thread here as it has some information about the room and people wouldn´t be posting in two threads for this project.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
@gibbsy would it be good idea to combine the earlier thread here as it has some information about the room and people wouldn´t be posting in two threads for this project.
Makes sense. Merged.
 

gpt

Active Member
are these the correct threads to merge?
 

Atomicus

Active Member
That is good price for Marantz, PT has 850£! As you are building dedicated cinema room you should really think carefully about future. I assume you could opt for sidewall height channels in 5.1.4 configuration, or front/rear heights if you leave the required space / opt for smaller speakers (in height) as you are dealing with tight space height wise. You mentioned starting with 5.1 for now, but in the long run it would be wise to pick receiver which gives you more options. I bet when you jump with Atmos wagon you get more hungry and then want .4 sooner or later in your man cave! There is plenty of members threads to show how the 5.1.4 can be done even in smaller rooms. With this hobby never say never. :)

@gibbsy would it be good idea to combine the earlier thread here as it has some information about the room and people wouldn´t be posting in two threads for this project.

Is the Marantz worth the £200 over the 3500 though? I am not sure if I WILL ever use the extra channels... by the time I do, I may want to upgrade anyway, but obviously I can't know that for sure. As you say, even a jump to x2 extra Atmos for 5.1.4 would mean the 3500 wouldn't be up to task, but the Marantz would.

That said, I am not sure where I'd put more Atmos speakers exactly? I don't want to be cutting holes in my sound insulated ceiling.

Are there any other features on the Marantz that would make it worth considering over the 3500?

I am limited on height with speakers, but my seating solution will be bean bags so they will still be at ear height. The issue is I won't be able to fit floorstanders, so am limited to bookshelf speakers. Not that the R100s are shabby by any means.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Is the Marantz worth the £200 over the 3500 though? I am not sure if I WILL ever use the extra channels... by the time I do, I may want to upgrade anyway, but obviously I can't know that for sure. As you say, even a jump to x2 extra Atmos for 5.1.4 would mean the 3500 wouldn't be up to task, by the Marantz would.

That said, I am not sure where I'd put more Atmos speakers exactly? I don't want to be cutting holes in my sound insulated ceiling.

Are there any other features on the Marantz that would make it worth considering over the 3500?

I am limited on height with speakers, but my seating solution will be bean bags so they will still be at ear height. The issue is I won't be able to fit floorstanders, so am limited to bookshelf speakers. Not that the R100s are shabby by any means.

Tough question, 200£ in the long run isn´t much for little future proof in my books if you are intrested in Atmos and you have "free hands" in your dedicated cinema room.

5.2.4 / 7.2.2 out of box and 11.2 processing (7.2.4 with 2ch amp) and performance (power) seems to be identical to Denon X4500H (999£) at one site who measured both machines so 699£ is good price but up to you. :)



Front Height / Top Middle by Rich @Seriously Ltd
imageuploadedbyavforums1447972683-148199-jpg.647619


or two pairs on sidewall high up with example KEF Q50a (keyholes for screw mounting). @dyson2004 Dali system below.
img_5780-jpg.1029135


Front/rear heights by Rich @Seriously Ltd
362d08cbc36e44655ea0f64075056f6d.jpg
 

Atomicus

Active Member
Tough question, 200£ in the long run isn´t much for little future proof in my books if you are intrested in Atmos and you have "free hands" in your dedicated cinema room.

5.2.4 / 7.2.2 out of box and 11.2 processing (7.2.4 with 2ch amp) and performance (power) seems to be identical to Denon X4500H (999£) at one site who measured both machines so 699£ is good price but up to you. :)

With just 5.1.2 though, minus the advantage of adding more in the future (which is an unknown at present), are there any other advantages to the 6013 vs 3500 in terms of performance? They do seem broadly similar, and I've heard a few people say the Marantz is geared more towards music, but does a fine job with movies also. Given I am no audiophile, any differences may be so subtle I'd be unlikely to pick up on them anyway. Aesthetically both are nice. Are they noisy? Do these things have fans? Would they both chuck out the same heat?

I'm guessing a power amp like the aforementioned Behringer A800 may be required whichever one I went for?

I put in an inquiry to PT about price/availability, and they are telling me the 3500 has more than enough power (for R100, R2C, Q50A), but I always take these sales guys claims with a pinch of salt!
 

steve12

Active Member
I've just brought the R100's for fronts and the R2c for the center and they are impressive. Am going to watch my first film with them tonight "The Quiet Palce" am even thinking of grabbing another set of the 100's for rear duties. The first think that took me by surprise was how heavy they are. My room is quiet small so i'll post a picture of them tomorrow it may help you.
Steve
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I put in an inquiry to PT about price/availability, and they are telling me the 3500 has more than enough power (for R100, R2C, Q50A), but I always take these sales guys claims with a pinch of salt!
I drove a pair of R100s and a R200C with a Denon 2310 which was slightly less powerful than the 3500 for about six months with no problems, that was in a 5.1 configuration. 5.1.2 with four 100, the centre and the upfiring modules is going to push the 3500 to it's limits if you like to have things loud. Of course you will have the ability to add a power amp for the front three if needed, so all would not be lost and a power amp will not cost you a fortune.
 

DrH

Active Member
Deleted my post as I thought I had responded to a question
Two threads merged together?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
With just 5.1.2 though, minus the advantage of adding more in the future (which is an unknown at present), are there any other advantages to the 6013 vs 3500 in terms of performance? They do seem broadly similar, and I've heard a few people say the Marantz is geared more towards music, but does a fine job with movies also. Given I am no audiophile, any differences may be so subtle I'd be unlikely to pick up on them anyway. Aesthetically both are nice. Are they noisy? Do these things have fans? Would they both chuck out the same heat?

I'm guessing a power amp like the aforementioned Behringer A800 may be required whichever one I went for?

I put in an inquiry to PT about price/availability, and they are telling me the 3500 has more than enough power (for R100, R2C, Q50A), but I always take these sales guys claims with a pinch of salt!

Otherwise they are quite similar, some have found Marantz bit more musical, others not. The biggest thing is the extra amps and 11.2 processing which the X3500H misses. I have made some choices earlier thinking i don´t need X feature, but later on that has changed and it sucks then so really think it through if you can spare 200£ for bit extra future proofing as you are intrested of Atmos already.

I have no idea how loud you listen. R100 aren´t highly efficient speakers, but as you start with 5.1 system in small room with speakers close to you, listen how it sounds and you can add poweramp later on if you feel so. And yes it seems these machines run hot so make sure you have plenty of space to breath, you can add silent cooler if needed. Haven`t heard anyone mentioning noise.

You should really look R200c as 2nd hand unless PT gives you some big discount. R2c costs 850£ as R200c goes often for 300£. You just missed one. :(

Dennis Burger (hometheaterreview) has reviewed both SR6012 and SR6014 models, this would apply to 6013 aswell. Might give you some idea.

In short: assuming its amps have enough power to fill your room, this receiver delivers a rich, robust, powerful surround sound and stereo experience that's more than satisfying. In my 13-by-15-foot secondary media room, the SR6014 isn't quite powerful enough to sustain THX reference listening levels, but it easily cranked out peaks of 97dB at my main listening position roughly two meters away, driving my 87dB-sensitive RSL CG3 5.2 Home Theater Speaker System. That's plenty enough for my tastes, and the receiver delivered audio at that level cleanly and articulately. For most of my listening, I had the volume dial turned to the left of that point another five or six decibels, purely as a matter of preference, but also in keeping with where most home cinema enthusiasts keep their dials set. (In my experience, most people in our hobby tend to listen at 10 to 12dB down from THX reference, with peaks in the neighborhood of 93 to 95dB, though your preferences may differ.)

Throughout my listening, I found bass performance to be fantastic--powerful and controlled, with equal parts authority and nimbleness. Dialogue was perfectly intelligible, soundstage was fantastic, and distortion was inaudible.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
What happened?

Picked cheap receiver after more expensive one died and it misses some features i would like to have. Though i knew it would be just a stop gap waiting to buy something better in right time. But with certain compromises in room it has been put on hold. It feels there is always something more urgent to throw money than av gear. Maybe next year... :rolleyes:
 
D

Deleted member 39241

Guest
Picked cheap receiver after more expensive one died and it misses some features i would like to have. Though i knew it would be just a stop gap waiting to buy something better in right time. But with certain compromises in room it has been put on hold. It feels there is always something more urgent to throw money than av gear. Maybe next year... :rolleyes:
Yes, budget is always a challenge.

So, what AVR did you have that died, and what did you replace it with?
 

steve12

Active Member
Hi Atomicus, here are a few photos of the R100's and R2c hope it helps, although i think i need to change my R100's position and the R2C is on a table, unsure if i will get a dedicated center speaker stand like the Atacama Moseco or change the bottom of my Chimney breast so that the table goes further in, unsure yet, Oh and ingnore the dog he's staring at food again :nono:
Steve
 

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gibbsy

Moderator
Oh and ingnore the dog he's staring at food again :nono:
How can you resist.

Bring all your speakers forward. Get the front of them so that the front is around 25mm over the front of the shelf edges. That will help stifle any reflections of the shelf top themselves. Very important with a centre.
 

steve12

Active Member
How can you resist.

Bring all your speakers forward. Get the front of them so that the front is around 25mm over the front of the shelf edges. That will help stifle any reflections of the shelf top themselves. Very important with a centre.
ive got isolation foam lifting the center and the fisual pads that you suggested for the R100's
 

steve12

Active Member
Hi Gibbsy,
Would this be a better palcement there is between 11-13 inches at the rear of the R100 and around 2.5-3 cm overhang on the front of the center
Steve
 

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gibbsy

Moderator
ive got isolation foam lifting the center and the fisual pads that you suggested for the R100's
It's the speakers interaction with the shelf top that can cause problems. Give it a try, no need to re-run Audyssey. You may find less SSSSSS sounds on dialogue.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Hi Gibbsy,
Would this be a better palcement there is between 11-13 inches at the rear of the R100 and around 2.5-3 cm overhang on the front of the center
Steve
Yes, that's better.:smashin:
 

Atomicus

Active Member
@steve12 Thanks, very useful to see. :)

As mentioned, I do have an issue with height... I'm still unsure how I will mount these speakers... i.e if small stands would be OK... I saw these Atacama ones... small, but height is about right for them sitting underneath screen with the R100s on top. Not cheap though, plus would still need something for the centre. I don't know about wall brackets and if there's anything suitable there.
 

steve12

Active Member

steve12

Active Member
Hi,
Am not an expert mate but with the R100 being 280mm tall it only leaves you with 320mm to play with for a stand or unit and i dont think that there are many units at that height. i looked at the besta for you but there 380mm tall. i did see where someone had brackets and am sure he had the r300 on them so i will try and find the post for you. i know that hiracks sell speaker stands and you could get all 3 matching but probably wouldnt be cheap.
 

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