Best projector for £3k

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The Spaniard

Active Member
Hi Guys,

To cut to the chase I had a sony vw60 Black pearl damaged beyond repair and the insurance company have now coughed up. Would you replace like with like or is there anything better (in the same price bracket) either now or imminent.

My projector is ceiling mounted in my lounge above my head :D, throw is around 11ft and my screen is a da-lite cinema contour grey screen.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2512296688_b053ccea93.jpg

For those of you who have looked at the picture, the leak that took place above the projector, and came through the ceiling directly into it, had another major benefit - it enabled me to get rid of that horrible artexing!

All advice welcomed!
 

The Spaniard

Active Member
Yes Markie Boy, I have had a quick look at that - good reviews! Its a bit of a price jump though and I dont know how much better it is for the 2k difference. Having had the VW60 I do know that it is a cracking picture :thumbsup:

I cant seem to find out how 'noisy' the HD100 is as this is a big issue for me given the projector placement about 3ft from my head!

No news yet then of a VW70 or anything from anyone else?
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Hi Guys,

To cut to the chase I had a sony vw60 Black pearl damaged beyond repair and the insurance company have now coughed up. Would you replace like with like or is there anything better (in the same price bracket) either now or imminent.

My projector is ceiling mounted in my lounge above my head :D, throw is around 11ft and my screen is a da-lite cinema contour grey screen.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2512296688_b053ccea93.jpg

For those of you who have looked at the picture, the leak that took place above the projector, and came through the ceiling directly into it, had another major benefit - it enabled me to get rid of that horrible artexing!

All advice welcomed!

I think it depends on your PQ priorities and how you define "better". The JVC D-ILA products may be worth an audition if you're not bothered by the inaccurate colour. Your VW60 is more accurate in this aspect. The new Planar DLP's may also be worth investigating if you're not sensitive to RBE and may be a good match to your grey screen.

AVI
 

The Spaniard

Active Member
"For the rumoured Sony VPL-VW70, you can reasonably forecast that Sony will increase the Sony VPL-VW60’s 900 lumen lamp to something more intense, although don’t expect to see any substantial improvement in the 35,000:1 contrast ratio. Expect to see improvements in the 1.8x optics and improvement in the 2,000 hour lifespan of the lamp. Sony will also likely drop some of the lower video compatibility standards from the Sony VPL-VW70, and may even drop the component video connection"

Any more on this?
 

tryingtimes

Well-known Member
It's unlikely that there will be any new projectors to buy until October in the UK.
The VW70 will probably be nice, but then there will be lots of new announcements from CEDIA which will start another round of head scratching. If you can wait until then, you will likely get more for your money. But it's a fair old while off yet.
 

The Spaniard

Active Member
Ahhh! Decisions, decisions.........:)

I am fairly happy with the picture quality of the VW60 and, to be honest, the VW10,11 and 50 before it! What I would really like to see is a real improvement in the level of fan noise, so important in a domestic set up.
 

justinh

Novice Member
As a matter of interest why are you not considering the JVC HD1. ProjectorCentral compare the VW60 with the HD1 (RS1) and say

"The JVC RS1 is worth the premium you will pay for it. When set up side by side with the VW60, the RS1 shows deeper blacks, more brilliant highlights, better color saturation, more accurate color, and overall a brighter picture. The RS1 is clearly the more formidable of the two projectors."

This can be had for well under £3k now.
Justin
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
"The JVC RS1 is worth the premium you will pay for it. When set up side by side with the VW60, the RS1 shows deeper blacks, more brilliant highlights, better color saturation, more accurate color, and overall a brighter picture. The RS1 is clearly the more formidable of the two projectors."
It's widely recognised that the JVC colour isn't accurate and it's gamut is very over saturated. This cannot be corrected using the projectors controls either. The Sony is more adjustable in this regard.

There is a danger with reviews in that we assume the review is providing "accurate" info. It would make we wonder about anything else the review claims given that gaff. :)

AVI
 

justinh

Novice Member
I am considering a sub £3k projector so have no particular angle to grind. I do not own any that are being discussed.
Where is the consensus that colour accuracy is at best average? I ask this because nearly every review I have found suggests otherwise (see below).
I do however agree that it has been criticised for its inability to allow the customer to finely tweek image settings in a number of respects.

Another specialist projectory review site (http://www.projectorreviews.com) quote:
"It's not just about the "wow factor", of rich, dynamic colors, but also the fact that the color accuracy is excellent, the imagery is very natural looking, and that there really aren't any major issues that impact enjoyment or performance."
There is another detailed review by a senior AVSFORUM member at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=812816 which again comments on out of the box colour accuracy.
Yet another at the well respected http://www.cine4home.com/ gives pretty high marks for colour performance.
I don't see why all these reviews would uniformly agree that colour performance is at least pretty darn good and all be significantly wrong.

Just curious thats all....
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I am considering a sub £3k projector so have no particular angle to grind. I do not own any that are being discussed.
Where is the consensus that colour accuracy is at best average? I ask this because nearly every review I have found suggests otherwise (see below).
I do however agree that it has been criticised for its inability to allow the customer to finely tweek image settings in a number of respects.

Another specialist projectory review site (http://www.projectorreviews.com) quote:
"It's not just about the "wow factor", of rich, dynamic colors, but also the fact that the color accuracy is excellent, the imagery is very natural looking, and that there really aren't any major issues that impact enjoyment or performance."
There is another detailed review by a senior AVSFORUM member at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=812816 which again comments on out of the box colour accuracy.
Yet another at the well respected http://www.cine4home.com/ gives pretty high marks for colour performance.
I don't see why all these reviews would uniformly agree that colour performance is at least pretty darn good and all be significantly wrong.

Just curious thats all....
Justin

As I said that can be the problem with reviews. There have been so many complaints that JVC US is introducing an external video processor to correct the issue - http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101766 :)

Colour performance can be established by measuring the primary and secondary colours the display produces and mapping these onto a CIE chart. The chart indicates how the display measures against defined industry standards for colour reproduction. If the colours are over saturated compared to the standard they can appear false i.e. too vivid or as some users described them cartoon'ish in some circumstances. Grass/green may look neon of people have suntans when they don't etc. This may be a problem for some people.

Scroll down about three quarters of the way down the attached link (part 8) and to see an example chart showing the JVC. BTW this is not a review of the JVC. It is a basic guide to calibration and the issues that can be encountered during the calibration process.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

"We would like both projectors to have primaries that fall exactly on the dark grey triangle that is our target Rec709 (HD) colour space. The Barco primaries are pretty close and no further correction is needed or warranted. The JVC primaries are much worse. They are considerably outside the Rec709 (HD) standard which causes the colours to appear much too vibrant. Especially true of the green primary which is to the left as well which gives a yellowish hue to all greens. The JVC does not have a colour management system (CMS) for altering the primaries so an advanced scaler (such as the $4-5K Lumagen Radiance) or other modifications are required if we wish to move the primaries to more accurate values.

So why isn't more vibrant colours a better thing? You may think that being able to display colours that are outside the standard is a good thing as it'll give you a broader range of colours. Unfortunately that's not true. While more vibrant colours may look pleasing in some cases (cartoons or other artificial content) it will not look correct for the other 90%+ of content that we are familiar with such as human faces or objects from nature we see every day (the sky, grass, and so on). Overly saturated colours will cause (for example) green grass to have an almost neon-like glow to it at times. Below is an example:"

Here's link to the US (RS1=HD1) owners thead. The later part deals with using external products in an attempt fix the gamut issue - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813550&page=215

AVI
 

crimsoneagle

Active Member
Justin

As I said that can be the problem with reviews. :)

Colour peformance can be established by measurings the primary and secondary colours the display produces and mapping these onto a CIE chart. The chart show how the display measures againt the defined standards for colour reproduction. If the colours are over saturated againt the standard they can appear false i.e. too vivid or as some users described them cartoonish in some circumstances. Grass may look neon of people have sunstans etc.

Sroll down about three quarters of the way down the attached (part 8) and to see an example chart showing the JVC.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

AVI
Thanks for the link AVI something Ive been looking for ...
:smashin:
 

tryingtimes

Well-known Member
I thought Cine4home explained all the shortcomings in their review. That's what I remember anyway.

One of the mistakes (and I firmly believe it is a mistake) some of the reviewers make is to measure/adjust greyscale tracking and think that it equates to accurate colour.
The JVC is excellent in this regard and I think this is where some of the confusion lies.
 

justinh

Novice Member
I thought Cine4home explained all the shortcomings in their review. That's what I remember anyway.

One of the mistakes (and I firmly believe it is a mistake) some of the reviewers make is to measure/adjust greyscale tracking and think that it equates to accurate colour.
The JVC is excellent in this regard and I think this is where some of the confusion lies.
From Cine4home :
Evaluation picture:
Overall: - 1,3 (Very Good -)
Black Level & Contrast - 1,0 (Very Good)
Sharpness & Interpolation (because of Chromabug) - 1,4 - 4.3 (Very Good to Sufficient)
Color Space / Temperature - 1,3/1.2 (Very good)
De-interlacing - 1,6 (Good)
Other aspects - 1,3 (Very Good)​

Regarding the resulting image quality everything has been said already: the JVC DLA-HD1 is a projector which projects a fascinating picture without a compromise, like hardly any machine before. And this "out of the box", without the user having to make additional adjustments.
Justin
PS Not trying to give a hard time - just a little bored at work :(
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I thought Cine4home explained all the shortcomings in their review. That's what I remember anyway.

One of the mistakes (and I firmly believe it is a mistake) some of the reviewers make is to measure/adjust greyscale tracking and think that it equates to accurate colour.
The JVC is excellent in this regard and I think this is where some of the confusion lies.
Possibly. :) Colour is just one of the things on the list of PQ priorities that may be more important to some people than others. It all comes down to personal PQ priorities. My post was in response to the quote from the review that claimed colour was accurate when clearly it isn't given the native gamut.

AVI
 

justinh

Novice Member
It's widely recognised that the JVC colour isn't accurate and it's gamut is very over saturated. This cannot be corrected using the projectors controls either. The Sony is more accurate in this regard.

There is a danger with reviews in that we assume the review is providing "accurate" info. It would make we wonder about anything else the review claims given that gaff. :)

AVI
Thanks for the link to that excellent article in the other post. I will bookmark it.

In the end anything that comments on the performance of anything is a review - including yours - they can not all be bad surely.
If so you are in effect telling me to dismiss your opinion as well :confused:

Generally with respect to reviews - all we are able to do is look for commonly agreed observations amongst reviewers, which we presumably should accept and ignore the exceptional comments by the odd review.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
In the end anything that comments on the performance of anything is a review - including yours - they can not all be bad surely.
If so you are in effect telling me to dismiss your opinion as well :confused:
I think it's healthy to take feedback/reviews with a pinch of salt. Do some research, understand the good/not so good and check things out first hand. As for colour reproduction simply measure the PJ's colour performance yourself. The result provides an objective measure that can be compared against a standard just as with grayscale, gamma, contrast, colour temp, white point, lumens etc. There's nothing wrong with having a subjective preference/opinion but that doesn't make it accurate or better compared to the target standard. :)

One of the benefits of a forum like this is the ability to share warts and all feedback from experienced owners of a given product. Some of it is complex but it's down to the reader to decide how they choose to use that feedback.

AVI
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I thought Cine4home explained all the shortcomings in their review. That's what I remember anyway..
I think Ekkehart is well aware of the issue. He made this comment over on AVS re the HD100. The HD1 is less evenly expanded with green being way oversaturated.

What we said is that the Color space is bigger and more evenly expanded. We did criticise that there is no CMS and that for videomaterial the colors are oversaturated... this is mentioned several times...


Regards,
Ekkehart
 

The Spaniard

Active Member
For me, the main issue with the JVC, which I did consider given the glowing reviews at release, was the noise, which if I recall correctly, was definitely louder than the Sony.

The other issues were the fact that, as I was replacing a VW50, the VW60 would slot straight onto my existing mount, I know the menu and controls inside out (4th VPL) and the total swap would be done in less than 30 minutes!

I will try and hold on until the new gang come out later in the year (but by the state of the weather I could be forgiven in thinking that its already winter!) but we shall see! :D
 
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