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Best picture quality R1 or R2? Easy Question4some

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by gammmmo, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    Excuse my ignorance but I'd like this one cleared up...

    R1 discs are for NTSC TVs which use 525 horizontal lines and R2 are for PAL which uses 625. Therefore do R2 discs have more infomation on them and therefore (assuming everything else is equal e.g. quality of transfer) better picture quality in theory?

    Thanks in anticipation...



    :confused:
     
  2. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
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    Technically yes.. but I don't think (for anamorphic films especially) you would really notice (I don't) the difference between NTSC and PAL. The biggest difference will come from the quality used as the source material in the first place and how well it has been encoded.

    When Region 2 was in its infancy there was a huge difference in the quality of the releases here and what you could get from the US. But now I rekon on the whole its very close!

    Cheers

    Matt
     
  3. Rambo John J

    Rambo John J
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    Personally I find it to be six of one and half a dozen of the other. The best transfers I have are all R1, but wouldn't commit to either region being better than the other, irrespective of how many lines are supposed to be on the screen. I can only base my opinion on what's in front of me and it's all viewed through the same equipment.

    Like Mr Horne says, it's more dependent on source materials and encoding houses than anything else.
     
  4. Dean

    Dean
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    I think they are roughly the same, btw does the frames per second (as they both differ by one fps) have any significance on quality?
     
  5. Duncan Harvey

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    Cant tell any difference with the picture, but I generally avoid PAL for films due to the speed up on the sound.

    Some people dont notice this, I do, similarly I dont really notice 3:2 pull down whereas I know others who are sensitive to this.

    My rule of thumb is to buy films from R1 and then buy TV shows (assuming they are available in both R1 and R2) in the format in which they were originated.

    Eg if its a US show, then I'll buy the 525 line versions rather than 525 to 625 conversions.

    That said modern 525 to 625 and 625 to 525 standards conversions can be extremely good. R1 usually works out cheaper however.
     
  6. LV426

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    As others have said - theoretically PAL has more detail. In practice the differences are so small as to be completely hidden by other factors in the disc mastering process.

    So the answer is, simply(?), for one given movie, one country's product may be better, worse, or equal to, another, and this varies by title.

    BTW - The often quoted generalisation that R1=NTSC is true, but the R2=PAL isn't. Japan is R2, yet is NTSC.

    And, in Japan, they have a few select discs that are way ahead of anything anywhere else. A superbit Jurassic Park, anyone?

    As for frame speed - films transferred to PAL are sped up by just shy of 4%. Films transferred to NTSC aren't.
     
  7. Kevo

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    The worst quality I have seen on DVD is non-anamorphic R1 WS films.
    They look AWFUL when blow up in 'zoom' mode on a WS TV, not to mention the juddery frame rate!

    I try to avoid these at all costs.
     
  8. dfield2000

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    Just to jump on the 'excuse my ignorance' bandwagon...

    I understand everything said above, except for the 3:2 pulldown bit. What is that ?
     
  9. Zone

    Zone
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  10. Garrett

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    Does that matter if you are watching it on TV rather than with a projector?
     
  11. the_pauley

    the_pauley
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    Don't forget that not all of the 625 lines in PAL are used for the picture. Quite a few are used to store other info such as teletext.

    On the plus side PAL has a maximum screen refresh rate of 100hz whereas NTSC has a max of 60hz. Pal is superior in other areas as well... BUT...

    Having said all that, the differences are mainly negligible and much depends on the mastering of the discs. I have a R1 Criterion of "Dead Ringers" (non anamorphic) and a R2 (also non anamorphic), and the R1 is very noticeably superior in picture quality to the R2.
     
  12. cybersoga

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    No it doesn't, PAL is 50hz, unless the TV is upscanning. As for my opinion about R2 vs R1, I generally get R2 discs unless the R1 version is better in a way that matters to me (quality of transfer etc). With most new DVD's R2 transfers are generally just as good as R1.

    R1 - FOR
    * Films generally come out earlier
    * Sometimes exclusive content that's not on other versions
    * Not cut by the BBFC
    * Sound and picture is not speeded up 4%
    * Some plasmas are better at scaling 480p (NTSC) than 575p (PAL).

    R1 - AGAINST
    * Multi region dvd player and NTSC compatible TV required
    * Unavailable on the high street, usually a couple of quid more to import, discs over the value of £18 are subject to import duty
    * 3:2 pull down at 60hz 480p progressive scan creates motion judder
    * Canadian versions have multi lingeral covers which I don't like
    * Lower picture resolution (640x480 NTSC vs PAL 720x576)
    * Second hand resell value is lower than R2 versions
    * Scan lines visible when viewed on a PAL 50/60hz "multisync" interlaced TV, even more visible if the DVD is letterboxed and you have to zoom into it.

    R2 - FOR
    * Works on any DVD player and TV in the UK
    * Available in any DVD shop in the UK, usually cheaper
    * Higher picture resolution (720x576 PAL vs 640x480 NTSC)
    * No Judder with 2:2 progressive scan 576p
    * Sometimes there's UK exclusive content
    * No worries about selling it on

    R2 - AGAINST
    * 4% speed up to 25FPS means audio is pitched up slightly
    * Sometimes cut by the BBFC
    * Audio commentry is sometimes removed because of the 2 points above
    * Old R2 dvd's usually have extras missing compared with R1 versions
     
  13. Duncan Harvey

    Duncan Harvey
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    Just a few comments re this post

    R1 - AGAINST
    * Multi region dvd player and NTSC compatible TV required

    Yes, but getting these is about as difficult as putting on a hat

    · Unavailable on the high street, usually a couple of quid more to import, discs over the value of £18 are subject to import duty

    Couple of quid more? You need to shop around

    · Second hand resell value is lower than R2 versions
    Eh??

    * “Scan lines visible when viewed on a PAL 50/60hz "multisync" interlaced TV”, .

    Sorry but that’s meaningless – true scan lines can be seen when zooming non anamorphic transfers but that’s the same for PAL.

    R2 - FOR

    * Available in any DVD shop in the UK, usually cheaper

    Cheaper than what? And since when have “non sale” DVDs been cheaper in the shops than on-line alternatives

    · Higher picture resolution (720x576 PAL vs 640x480 NTSC)

    Well yes but when the differences in resolution are so minimal to the naked eye, it’s the quality of the transfer rather than the resolution that makes the difference
    ·
    * No Judder with 2:2 progressive scan 576p

    Nothing to do with progressive scan, an interlaced picture wont judder either as for film based sources each frame is repeated to create the 50 fields

    * Sometimes there's UK exclusive content – agreed, but as there is usually more R1 exclusive content this is hardly a consistent selling point for R2
     
  14. LV426

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    This is becoming another one of 'those' threads.

    And the reason why, is that there isn't a definitive answer to the question. It depends on (mainly) the disc itself, plus some other factors. For example:

    > 3:2 pulldown DOES happen. But not on my projector.
    > Zoomed NTSC scanlines are more visible - true for those who use (especially) large CRTs or CRT RP TVs. Definitely an irrelevance for those who use DLP, Plasma and LCD devices. It is probably also an irrelevance for anyone using a regular CRT below, say 32 inch.
    > Some people are sensitive to the 4% speedup of PAL. Some aren't.

    ....and so on.
     
  15. Kevo

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    R2 FOR

    The UK/Euro Economy ?
     
  16. Duncan Harvey

    Duncan Harvey
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    if thats the best reason then I'll stick to largely R1 :)
     
  17. Dean

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    Interesting post, I have to say performance-wise the difference is hard to tell on most discs. But what concerns me is the cutting in R2 DVDs. I bought Eraser R2 and painfully found out that an 'entire' scene had been cut (at the end where the train rams the limo) as well as others. That's why I usually go for R1 now.
     
  18. Zone

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    And unfortunately thats due to the dicks at the BBFC :thumbsdow
     
  19. Quinnsey

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    No, that's due to the dicks at Warner who want a lower rating ;) Ever wonder why Warner movies are the ones most often censored?
     
  20. bastogne

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    >R1 discs are for NTSC TVs which use 525 horizontal lines and R2 are for PAL which uses 625. Therefore do R2 discs have more infomation on them and therefore (assuming everything else is equal e.g. quality of transfer) better picture quality in theory?

    Yes, R2 PAL discs will give you better picture quality assuming, as you say, everything else is equal e.g. quality of transfer.
     
  21. figrin_dan

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    In my experience NTSC at 60Hz is an improvement over PAL at 50Hz (comparing like with like), but at 100Hz there is not so much of a difference
     
  22. one_jedi

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    Theres a great article here for NTSC Vs PAL :http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/PALvsNTSC/PALvsNTSC.asp

    So as it says in this article all things being equal Pal is slightly superior, unless you don't like the 4% speed up.

    However things aren't always equal so there obviously is no right or wrong answer for which is better. Obviously Pal has a resoloution but compare a PAL a DVD that is a few years old to a Brand new NTSC DVD and althougth Pal still has the higher resoloution the newer NTSC dvd is going to look better and sharper.

    So even today if you have the same film the NTSC version might be better encoded than the Pal or the other way round; the Pal might be better encoded. Althougth some people still believe that the US being a bigger market and much more profitable that they spend more time/money whatever in doing a transfer.

    Also something that is not often mention is that alot of the special features, documentry's, etc will be NTSC to Pal conversion seeing as most of the special features orignate from the US and will be filmed in NTSC video or even if they are done on film it's a lot easier for comapnies just to convert them from the NTSC version rather than to get the film masters etc.

    Personally I tend to but most movies Pal, just becasue I can't be bothered to always order from the net! Sometimes I will get the R1 if it's is out a lot earlier or obviously much better. However I buy anime and I will ussually try to get the NTSC as most Pal releases are NTsc to Pal conversions and thus suffer.
     
  23. mattruston

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    I personally have only one title i own on both region 1 ntsc format and region 2 pal format. Whether i am just imagining a difference because i want to justify the snail like pace of region 2 pal releases or not is out to question. But personally i notice a slightly grainier picture on the region 1 version, with less realistic colours.
     

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