best modern speakers for a marantz PM7200

Dave L

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Hi,
I bought this amp recently second hand and am happy with it. I like the class A feature.
Only thing now is that I'm looking for a decent set of modern speakers for it. I'm currently using an old set of sony speakers, very generic and are holding this amp back.

I've seen many say the B&W 685s are good but see their frequency response starts at 50hz, I'd prefer to go to 20 hz or near it.
Has anyone tried something like MA RX8s ?

I listen to everything from rock, indie to john denver and leonard cohen, basically good vocals, electric guitar, symbols and a solid bass.
 
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Your not going to get down to 20hz frequencies without using a subwoofer in the system. When using a sub, I would use satellite speakers. If you can post a budget, people will be able to give you more relevant ideas. If you really want 20hz performance though, your not going to do it with just large loudspeakers alone unless you get very large ones that are liable to being very expensive as well.
 
The Class A feature on your PM7200 does reduce the amplifier's output - you will achieve a higher general output using it in it's normal Class A/B mode.

As mentioned, very few speakers will reach 20Hz, and even if they do, they won't achieve it with much useable output. However, with your choice of music, I doubt very much you'd benefit from output at that sort of depth. As mentioned, a subwoofer will allow you to reach those frequencies though, so if you like the RX8's, you could look at a pair of RX1's and add a sub like the SVS SB12, which should work out around the same sort of budget.

Based on your music choices, I think a good pair of floorstanders will do the job just fine. Something like the Monitor Audio RX8's, Dynaudio DM2/7's, and B&W DM683's should be auditioned to see if they suit what you're after. D try a few other speakers though, some that aren't necessarily designed for good bass output, as you might find something that is of a little better overall quality.
 
Hi,
Thanks for the replies, am only kinda starting off in all this stuff, so you dont need to go down to 20 hz to get a good response so. thats good to know.
The price region I was looking at was about 1000 euros max for the speakers.

Whats concerning me is that in the manual that the speaker impedance should be 8ohms, how strict is that?, do people safely run lower impedance speakers then this on this unit?.

Another thing, you can run 4 speakers at once on this unit but the manual says that the speakers need to be 16 ohms each when you do this, am I reading this right??, this seems unusually high to me, are there any good speakers at this impedance ?
 
I'd advise against running two pairs of speakers at the same time, particularly if you're using the Class A mode.

I would steer clear of speakers that are a flat 4ohms like KEF Reference for example, as these tend to be the most demanding as they're constantly asking a lot of the amplifier. Many other speakers - even if they are rated 8ohms - tend to dip in impedance when reproducing bass. These speakers will give an 8ohms nominal impedance, and may or may not specify the lower figures it reaches. As long as you stick to sub £1,000 speakers, you should be fine. There are one or two exceptions, but you're unlikely to come across those anyway.
 
Lower impedance figures are harder for the amp to drive and vice versa. This means your amp can drive 8 ohm loads and above, but not below. I think you will find it hard to find 16ohm speakers, and it sounds like they are simply saying you can run more speakers by using higher impedance ones, which any amp can do. I would stick to a single pair of 8 ohm speakers for your amp in this given scenario.
 
hi
Again many thanks for the rapid responses, so we'll be sticking to 8 ohms or more so.

Im figuring that the 4 outputs on this amp are set to 2 in-parallel output pairs, cos you can run either four 16 ohm speakers or two 8ohms . I would have thought it would be more logical and safe to have the pairs in-series rather then in-parallel.

So the MA RX8's are out unless I get 4 of them and run then in 2 in-series pairs.
Out of curiosity, are you loosing out on anything doing this frequency response wise...

Anyway, I'm wondering off topic really, so any pointers as to what floor stand speaker would be good for a grand or less that would give a good bass response , vocal, guitar and symbols and be 100watts, 8 ohms or more.
 
hi
Again many thanks for the rapid responses, so we'll be sticking to 8 ohms or more so.

Im figuring that the 4 outputs on this amp are set to 2 in-parallel output pairs, cos you can run either four 16 ohm speakers or two 8ohms . I would have thought it would be more logical and safe to have the pairs in-series rather then in-parallel.

So the MA RX8's are out unless I get 4 of them and run then in 2 in-series pairs.
Out of curiosity, are you loosing out on anything doing this frequency response wise...


Anyway, I'm wondering off topic really, so any pointers as to what floor stand speaker would be good for a grand or less that would give a good bass response , vocal, guitar and symbols and be 100watts, 8 ohms or more.

To answer the bit in bold,

You actually gain more output from your system by adding more speakers and running them in series because system sensitivity increases (you would get 3db more total output for any given input of power in watts). You could however run into issues with series wired speakers with uneven loading because one speaker gets the signal before the other, so the first speaker affects the second. This may or may not work well, and its a bit of guess. The only way to be sure would be to try it, and its not the cheapest gamble ever.

As for floor standing speakers, they're arent really my forte, and David is much the better person to help you out there. I'm sure he will post some ideas up soon. Frank Harvey sell numerous types of floor standing speaker as well, so he has good experience in that respect.
 
because one speaker gets the signal before the other, so the first speaker affects the second. .

Can you explain why (not saying you're wrong). The current flowing through the speakers will be identical and in phase and it's current that moves the voice coil. After all, speakers are primarily resistive in nature.
 
Can you explain why (not saying you're wrong). The current flowing through the speakers will be identical and in phase and it's current that moves the voice coil. After all, speakers are primarily resistive in nature.
When you series wire speakers or drivers, the current flows through one speaker first, then the next one. What effects this has is somewhat debated, but if the first speaker begins to suffer things like power compression, then this could have an affect on the next speaker or driver down the line. Ive read a few times about this, but never tested for it myself or searched particularly hard for raw data.
Its rarely an issue, not many people have to consider that kind of thing.
 
When you series wire speakers or drivers, the current flows through one speaker first, then the next one.

It's like water in a pipe not people in a queue: when the electrons start to flow, they all flow or are you telling me they get compressed?

Its rarely an issue, not many people have to consider that kind of thing.

So rare, I wondered why you raised it.

Going back to your original posting:

You actually gain more output from your system by adding more speakers and running them in series because system sensitivity increases (you would get 3db more total output for any given input of power in watts).

When you put speakers in series, you double the impedance, and halve the current flowing for the same applied signal. At the same time, you halve the power output. If you put them in parallel, for a given amplifier setting, you get twice the current flowing and thus a 3db increase in output power. You don't get more out for the for the same: (Mr Newton would be turning in his grave) you put more in.
 
It's like water in a pipe not people in a queue: when the electrons start to flow, they all flow or are you telling me they get compressed?

Power compression in a driver is one of the side effects of heat build up in the coil, the net effect being that your output gains stop increasing with your input gains. When series wired, the current has to pass through the VC of one speaker first, then into the second, and the theory is that the signal comes out of the first speaker in these cases, slightly differently than when it went in.



So rare, I wondered why you raised it.

Because the OP posed the specific question.

Going back to your original posting:



When you put speakers in series, you double the impedance, and halve the current flowing for the same applied signal. At the same time, you halve the power output. If you put them in parallel, for a given amplifier setting, you get twice the current flowing and thus a 3db increase in output power. You don't get more out for the for the same: (Mr Newton would be turning in his grave) you put more in.

When you said going back to my post, well, lets actually do that :thumbsup:

You actually gain more output from your system by adding more speakers and running them in series because system sensitivity increases (you would get 3db more total output for any given input of power in watts). You could however run into issues with series wired speakers with uneven loading because one speaker gets the signal before the other, so the first speaker affects the second. This may or may not work well, and its a bit of guess. The only way to be sure would be to try it, and its not the cheapest gamble ever.

What I said here is that for any given input you get 3db more output from your speakers total. So, 2 speakers at 4 ohms with say 100 watts running into them, doesnt give as much output as 4 speakers running 8 ohms total that also receives 100 watts.

What you state is correct, higher impedances mean the amp cant push as much total power, but if it can deliver the same amount of power to 4 speakers as it did to two at the new impedance, you gain system sensitivity and gain more total output. Of course, this assumes you didnt use the full capability of your amp in the first place. If the power you push drops in half in the new 4 speaker setup, then you wont gain output you'll get the same, but you will have a cooler running amplifier and cooler running speakers, which will lead to cleaner output form both, and cleaner total power. Multiple speakers can also lead to an improved in room response, and/or better distribution of sound throughout a listening environment, so there still might be some impetus to run a 4 speaker scenario.
 
Power compression in a driver is one of the side effects of heat build up in the coil, the net effect being that your output gains stop increasing with your input gains. When series wired, the current has to pass through the VC of one speaker first, then into the second, and the theory is that the signal comes out of the first speaker in these cases, slightly differently than when it went in..

When current flows through these circuits there is no slow start: the same current flows through all elements. The suggestion that it flows through one speaker before the other is nonsense. Current cannot do that: it flows like water in pipes when water flows through one part of the pipe it flows through all parts of the pipe. Your reference to power compression is a red herring in this instance. It may or may not affect the purity of sound, but if it does occur, it will occur in both speakers or are you suggesting that the current flows at different speeds or magnitude around the circuit?


What I said here is that for any given input you get 3db more output from your speakers total. So, 2 speakers at 4 ohms with say 100 watts running into them, doesnt give as much output as 4 speakers running 8 ohms total that also receives 100 watts.
..

Of course it does: power is power, if the 2 speakers in the first case are driven at 100 W and the 4 speakers are driven with 100W, then you will get 100 W equivalent of sound. The voltage coming out of the amp would be different that's all. The only thing that could make this not exactly true is if the speakers have different losses but as we are speaking hypothetically we can discount that. The only way you will get 3dB more is by increasing the current flow and that is by putting the speakers in parallel and not change the settings of the amp.
 
When current flows through these circuits there is no slow start: the same current flows through all elements. The suggestion that it flows through one speaker before the other is nonsense. Current cannot do that: it flows like water in pipes when water flows through one part of the pipe it flows through all parts of the pipe. Your reference to power compression is a red herring in this instance. It may or may not affect the purity of sound, but if it does occur, it will occur in both speakers or are you suggesting that the current flows at different speeds or magnitude around the circuit?

When speakers are wired in series, positive first goes to the first speaker, then the cable from the negative goes to the positive of the next speaker, then finally the neg of the second speaker returns to the amps. The second speaker therefore receives its signal form the amp via the first speaker. Obviously, during functioning, a speaker affects the signal it receives as well as that signal affecting the speaker (making the driver move). The theory goes that if the first speakers effects become negative, which they certainly can, this can affect the second speaker in the chain. There is a distinct difference between series wiring and parallel wiring.




Of course it does: power is power, if the 2 speakers in the first case are driven at 100 W and the 4 speakers are driven with 100W, then you will get 100 W equivalent of sound. The voltage coming out of the amp would be different that's all. The only thing that could make this not exactly true is if the speakers have different losses but as we are speaking hypothetically we can discount that. The only way you will get 3dB more is by increasing the current flow and that is by putting the speakers in parallel and not change the settings of the amp.

Speaker workshop 101. Adding more drivers gives more output for any given input power. If you give 4 speakers a total of 100 watts, you get 3db more total output than you do from giving 2 speakers 100 watts. Talking of using multiples of the same speaker. You get the increase because you have essentially changed the speaker as the amplifier sees it, the amp only sees a load, it doesnt know you have 1 speaker connected to it terminals or 2. When you power 2 speakers instead of 1, or 4 instead of 2, and so on, with the same total power, you get more output. This is because you have changed the properties the amplifier sees, including speaker sensitivity. This is one of the fundamental laws in the speaker world.
 
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Hi,
Thanks for the replies, am only kinda starting off in all this stuff, so you dont need to go down to 20 hz to get a good response so. thats good to know.
The price region I was looking at was about 1000 euros max for the speakers.

Whats concerning me is that in the manual that the speaker impedance should be 8ohms, how strict is that?, do people safely run lower impedance speakers then this on this unit?.

Another thing, you can run 4 speakers at once on this unit but the manual says that the speakers need to be 16 ohms each when you do this, am I reading this right??, this seems unusually high to me, are there any good speakers at this impedance ?


To answer your question simply.........:D

Juts use a decent 'pair' of speakers, will pretty much always sound better than 4 unless you have really good processing, even then 3 is the max for me.

If you like the Class A sound, something like a pair of Roksan TR-5 Ribbon speakers work excellently, add a used sub or something from BK and you will be amazed at the results.
No system that stops at 50hz can sound any better than 'good' imho.
A sub adds so much more than bass, it is one of the things that really does enhance the soundstage, alot of the time it is the sub that tells you how big the room was where it was recorded etc.

Doesn't have to be a monster sub, even a decent 10" will add loads.
It also helps will placement, I have always found it easier to get a nice flat response with a sub in the system than just a pair of speakers, I have only ever heard two systems that I would call true hifi that didn't have a sub, one was with Meridian DSP8000s and the other with Dunlavy SC-IV's, both go down to 20 hz though.
 
When speakers are wired in series, positive first goes to the first speaker, then the cable from the negative goes to the positive of the next speaker, then finally the neg of the second speaker returns to the amps. The second speaker therefore receives its signal form the amp via the first speaker. Obviously, during functioning, a speaker affects the signal it receives as well as that signal affecting the speaker (making the driver move). The theory goes that if the first speakers effects become negative, which they certainly can, this can affect the second speaker in the chain. There is a distinct difference between series wiring and parallel wiring.

There is no first and second speaker.
The current driving the speakers is alternating, so flows from + to -, and from - to +, so if the positive cycle reaches one speaker 'first', then the negative cycle will reach the second speaker 'first'.
The current flowing through a series wired circuit is the same at all points in the circuit, so all speakers are receiving the same signal regardless of their position in the circuit.
The problem is if you're using different speakers with different impedance curves - if speaker A drops to 3 ohms at a particular frequency then this will increase the current flowing through the circuit, which in turn increases the output of speaker B. So if you must wire speakers in series they should be identical.
 

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