Best kit for £10k tops

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Buying & Building' started by bighairybloke, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. bighairybloke

    bighairybloke
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    Hi all,

    Looking at my garage extension being done by summer so will be ready of me to kit out. If I was to throw some dosh at some nice equipment, what would you recommend I buy?

    The room will be 7m long by 4.2m wide, and I don't want to go OTT with speaker sizes...I've seen some true monsters in the Home Cinema mags!

    £10k tops is my budget for all components, cables etc. if I can spend less that'd be nice.....

    3d high def movie capability is essential.

    Thanks in advance chaps.

    Steve
     
  2. kbfern

    kbfern
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    Bit of a strange request for the screen forum,however here goes.

    For a projector you should be looking at either the JVC X30 £3k or Panny AE5000/Sony HW30 both under £3k.

    The best speakers for movies would be a M&K and they do a 950 THX package with subwoofer which will probably cost around £4k.

    M&K 950 THX System

    Amplification from a Pioneer LX85 £2k and lastly a decent 3mtr wide fixed screen £1k approx.

    With cables etc probably add another £200-300, that should give you some food for thought.

    http://www.laaudiofile.com/mksound_950_system.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  3. Zone

    Zone
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    Moved
     
  4. DanceSexyTutu

    DanceSexyTutu
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    I have a brand new X30 for sale in the classifieds if you are interested?
     
  5. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    I think before we start we need of list of equipment that is included in this budget?

    CD? BluRay? Amps? Speakers? TV - LCD, Plasma, LED? Projector? Both?

    It is hard to divide the budget up if we don't know what the budget is intended to buy.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  6. kbfern

    kbfern
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    Well as he was online earlier but has not posted further I don't know why he posted in the first place.
     
  7. bighairybloke

    bighairybloke
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    Blueray, projector(probably, but is my room too small?), screen, amp and speakers....and anything I need to wire it all together.

    Most odd that I posted on the screens forum...soz 'bout that!

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  8. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    It may seem that I am evading the core question, but I assure you the issue I bring up are important to resolve.

    I personally am not a big fan of projectors and screens unless the room in question is a purpose built dedicated Home Cinema. The room typically needs to be very dark, which limits the room to just watching movie. Even normal TV can be a pain on a large screen.

    Even so I'm not sure front projection is the way I would go. Mistubishi makes some very nice rear projection TVs that are bright and work fine in a normal lite room. Otherwise, LCD/LED/Plasma are getting quite large. Do you really need a screen larger that 65"? Maybe you do. Or many be you don't need it, but you none the less want it. That' fine; please yourself.

    A projector can work in just about any sized room, but there are consideration, like throw distance, and the smaller the space between projector and screen, the smaller the screen has to be.

    There are few home made screens that are ultimately going to be satisfying. It is far more complicated that painting your wall white or hanging up a white sheet. The screens need to be highly reflective. They do make screen paint that has reflective glass beads in it. But, these require a FLAT wall, far flatter than the average home wall. The wall must be sanded, primed, and sanded again, before the sub-coat and main reflective coat can be added.

    Given you budget, to really have a stunning system, I think about half the budget is going to have to go for a quality projector and screen. Again, I'm not big on projectors, so I don't know a lot about specific models. As to screen, there are some Black Diamond screens that are stunning in both the quality of white and blacks they produce, but they are not cheap.

    So, if we set aside £5k for the projector and screen, that leaves another £5k for the equipment. That should buy you a very very nice Audio system.

    Just to set a framework, let's set aside another £1000 for misc, which leaves £4k for the actual audio equipment.

    Next we need to consider available space, and the size of speakers you can handle.

    For example, your room is roughly 7m x 5m, will the projection screen go on the 7m wall or at the end on the 5m wall? You screen will have to be small enough to allow room for speaker, regardless of whether those speakers are bookshelf or floorstanding.

    Do you insist on compact small speaker, are bookshelf acceptable, can you go as far as modest floorstanding, can you go even farther to somewhat large bookshelf? We can accommodate any of these possibilities, but we need to know which one.

    With £4k for BluRay, Amp, and 5.1 speaker, I would say something in the range of £250 to £500 for the BluRay, unless you have a strong inclination toward CD/SACD music, in which case, I would recommend one of the many Universal BluRay players which are going to run about £650 to £900. In order of cost, Marantz UD7006, Cambridge Audio 651/751, Oppo 95. Stunning audio and video playback from all.

    Let's say for now £750 for the BluRay. Now we have a remaining £3250 for amp and speakers. I would say a good division would be £1250 for the amp and about £2000 for speakers.

    Now, I've estimated very long on both Projector/Screen and Misc. Likely those will not consume the entire budget as stated. That will leave a bit more for amp and speakers. Also, as pointed out, you don't have to spend £1000 on a BluRay player just to play BluRay. If you don't need first rate CD audio playback, then a normal £250 to £500 BluRay will be more than enough.

    In an odd sense, I'm somewhat laying out worst case. Likely, you can have £1500 for the AV amp, and another £2500 for speakers. Which should serve you well.

    But again, there are a few issue that need to be resolved.

    How will the screen/projector be oriented in the room?

    What size speakers can you handle?

    Does the room have any special needs or considerations? Is it odd shaped? Are there obstacles like fireplaces that will get in the way? The more we know, the better we can help?

    It may seem like things are getting impossibly complicated, but I promise you, once the details are resolved, it all falls together in the end.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  9. kbfern

    kbfern
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    A 7m x 4.2mtr size room is plenty big enough for a projector and large screen with seating for at least 6-8 people if required so have no fear there.My cinema is also my office and is 3.5m x 4mtr and I have a 2.5mtr wide screen with seating for 2-3 and sit 2.5mtrs away from it so you should have no problem.

    Regarding the screen Steve is totally wrong pointing out that home made screens are not satisfying and that they need to be very reflective.Quite the opposite is true,the last thing you want from most screens is reflectivity as this causes problems with illuminating your room.

    Most screens have a gain of 1-1.2 if your room is ambient light free (no windows or good curtains/blinds covered windows). The only time you need some extra gain is if you want an extremely large screen (over 3-4mtrs wide) or need to counteract bad room conditions and want to view in daylight type conditions.There are then speciality type screens to help like Draper ReactII,DNP supernova and also Black diamond that make this possible but are expensive and can run from £1200-£3k depending on size.

    If a fixed screen rather than a drop down is your preferred choice (I would say they are best anyway) it is well worth going the diy route as you can make it a custom size to suit your room.

    I have a diy screen myself and used a 2.5mtr wide sheet of mdf to produce a 107" diagonal screen.Total cost was under £50 and the image I get from it is as good as any professional screen costing many hundreds of pounds.It also did not involve using any special paint and having to take extra care in prep work, just bog standard Dulux matt paint was used.

    The sort of paint Steve was referring to is Black widow mix which is only really necessary if you are trying to overcome poor contrast conditions in your room.If you are having a garage extension I would assume this room is going to be more than likely used as a dedicated home cinema in which case it probably will have no or minimal windows and no odd shape to contend with.You should have the room painted as dark as possible (including the ceiling) though it does not need to be black.

    I did miss out on the bluray player but that does not have to cost the earth these days bluray players can cost from less than £100 and it does not warrant spending more than £200-£300 unless you want it to be multi region bluray or have analog outs such as an Oppo player at £500.In fact the Sony PS3 is a good optio at £200 approx as you can then play games as well as movies.There is little to choose image quality wise between a cheap player and an expensive one other than the features and a bit better build quality.

    Lastly take a look over on the home cinema gallery forum at what others have done.I have included a link below to Phils cinema that he completed last year.His room is half his double garage and although he did most of the construction himself has got a superb cinema room for under £7k.

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/memb...0-phils-17-x-8-diy-cinema-room-ex-garage.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2012
  10. bighairybloke

    bighairybloke
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    Thanks chaps for the advice.

    The room is the maximum size i can make it in the space i have available and it will be a dedicated HC room. No windows so no ambient light issues.
    Will be concrete block single block thick construction(is there any advantage to having other block types?) with wooden battens, ply/block/chip/MDF boarding with rockwool insulation. Walls and ceiling will be carpeted in a dark deep pile carpet stapled to the wooden boards. Floor will have a top notch underlay. Heating will be by panel heaters and a fan heater for initial heat up.
    Room shape is rectangular, I'd envisaged having the display on one of the narrower walls. Speaker size is no issue to me so no restrictions other than appropriateness for the size of the room.
    I will have two reclining armchairs as the main viewing seats with possibly a raised sofa behind for guests.
    No preference to projector screen, but spending this amount i dont want to let the projector down with a poor screen. Not sure what size to have the screen given the size of the room...
    Standard good quality Bluray player is fine, i wont be using it for SACD.

    Thanks chaps keep it coming!

    Steve
     
  11. kbfern

    kbfern
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    I don't know about the room construction materials so will leave others to comment on that so will stick to the a/v stuff.

    One of the pj's I stated in my first post will be ideal along with the M&K speaker setup so I would suggest a trip along to Allan at idealav he can demo the latest Sony Epson and JVC 3D projectors along with M&K speakers and he has a range of screens to view too.He has a draper react II although with your batcave room you would not need one of those a white screen will be perfectly ok.

    I doubt you will get a better sound for a cinema setup than M&K's they are legendary and their subs really do the job.Other than that a SVS PB13 Ultra could be a good alternative.

    As to the size of screen a 3mtr wide would be just about right with a room 4mtrs wide leaving space either side of the screen for speakers.

    Your first row of seats should be around 3-3.5mtrs from the screen so the second row would be at about 5-6mtrs on a slightly higher plinth.
     
  12. kbfern

    kbfern
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    For heating I would consider a heater/ac unit like Phil has done in his room.In the summer months a hc with get pretty warm so cooling is definitely worth including.
     
  13. bighairybloke

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    That's a good idea, i have one in my bedroom its quiet too. Those M&K speakers are not cheap though lol!

    Anyone near Uttoxeter/Burton area with a HC set up i can come have a nose at?

    Steve
     
  14. kbfern

    kbfern
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    M&K are not cheap but fit right in with your budget.If you want to spend less I am sure we can suggest alternatives but at your original budget they are right on the money.

    You could run with an XTZ setup for the speakers with 3 x 99.26 at the front and 2 pairs 93.21 for rear and surrounds for a 7.1 system.That would cost around £1500 then add a SVS PB13 Ultra for the subwoofer at another £1600.

    That is approx £1k less than the M&K setup if you want to save a bit.

    I am in Wolverhampton 10 mins from Junc 11 M6 (Cannock) so approx 1/2hr drive from you and you are welcome to come over for a look at my home cinema and chat about what you can do in your proposed setup.
     
  15. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Here is an example of a Black Diamond Screen compare to a standard screen.

    Behind the drop down screen is NOT an LCD TV, that screen behind the screen is a Black Diamond.

    SI Projection Screens, Screen Innovations...


    Here is an example in a moderately well lit room -



    The Black Diamond are fixed screens, and they only come in a very few sizes, though they are reasonably large.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  16. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Here is an example of the amount of in-room reflection you get from a normal screen vs a Black Diamond. Keep an eye on the ceiling as the raise the normal screen and the Black Diamond comes into view -



    Steve/bluewizard
     
  17. bighairybloke

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    Thanks kbfern, will be in touch...defo want to see your set up! Also, that chap with the sub 7k system you mentionedlives in Tamworth...it might be worth a PM to him too;-)

    Nice Black Diamond...might help with eye strain too. I suffer from bright light sensitivity so the reduced reflection may help. Will look into costs!

    Steve
     
  18. kbfern

    kbfern
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    Black diamond screens can be effective under certain conditions but in a room like you intend to have offer no real advantage that cannot be achieved for a lot less money.

    A three metre BD screen will cost over £3k so I would think carefully before going down that route.
     
  19. kbfern

    kbfern
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    Steve

    No problem with a demo just send me a pm and we can arrange a day/time for you to come round.I work from home so daytime or evening is Ok.

    As you say Phil's would also be good to see I have been over there a couple of times and was very impressed with what he has achieved.
     
  20. bighairybloke

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    It sounds like this screen is made of similar stuff as that 3M reflective tape ie it reflects light back towards its source....I wonder if you can get a 3 m long strip of it.....;-)

    Steve
     
  21. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Just so we are clear, I'm not contradicting any of the other advice you've been given so far. Primarily in my first post I was trying to give you some basic sense of the division of expenses, just so you would have a starting framework to build on.

    I also acknowledged that I was probably quoting a bit long on the Misc and the projector/Screen, meaning you would have more money for amp and speakers. But, I still think my break down of budget gives you a good starting point to frame where you go from there.

    I think with a near £10k budget you have the potential for a very stunning system. And if you can get a chance to view a couple of near budget in home system, that would be fantastic. It will give you a huge sense of what appeals to you and what does not.

    And yes, the Black Diamond Screens are about £3k, but they look stunning. Again it depends on whether this is a dedicated Home Cinema only room, or it will be a multi-purpose room. Even the painted screens can be very nice and there are several YouTube videos showing how to apply them. But still say, a common wall painted white or a sheet hung on the wall is going to be less than satisfying. If you are going to spend £10k, you want to get it right.

    Also keep in mind, there is a reason why the movies are called The Silver Screen. Despite what you think you see at the movies, the screens really are a silver colored. One, to make them more reflective, and two, to give better contrast. It is easy enough to make red red, and white white, but it is much harder to make black black on a pure white screen.

    Many modern screen are more of a gray color with glass beads embedded into them to give you both brightness and good contrast.

    Good luck, and I'm sure in the end, if you take your time, you will have a stunning system.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  22. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    More videos on screen building -

    DIY Home Theater Screen


    and a painted screen -

    projector screen how to paint on dry wall


    Though there are many more videos on YouTube about all aspects of AV.

    Screen Goo is one of the brand of screen paint that are highly reflective and there is no shortage of Video on this -

    YouTube - Search - Screen Goo

    Also note that there are people who spray or roll Screen Goo, or similar, onto windows. Not sure how well that works, but there are some videos on it.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  23. NonPayingMember

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    Stud out the wall off the block wall. Install in-wall left, centre, right speakers and possibly subwoofer all in the studwork behind the screen.

    If the rest of the walls support it install the same speaker you have used for LCR as the surrounds at the same ear height all around. Otherwise stick the same speaker in the ceiling above/behind the seating position.

    JVC X30, Sony HW30, ThemeScene HD83 all decent offerings in budget.

    Do spend on screen, Screen Research Classic 2 with ClearPix3 material is under £1,700 for 2.4m viewing size and is acoustically transparent for the speakers.

    Wire all the kit to the back of the room (or the side, or another room) so that the front of the room is literally a baffle wall with speakers and a screen and no distractions.

    Hardware consider Denon AVRs for budget (from £500 for decent model), Oppo Blu-Ray player (£500).

    Remember bracketry, cabling, and installation costs.

    Remember racking/shelving and adequate ventilation for the kit.

    Seriously think about adding some more budget for scene controlled lighting it will make or break the room.
     
  24. bighairybloke

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    Thanks chaps.

    Ok plan so far is a projector 3-5k(is it worth the extra for the Sony 95?) will have to audition...
    M&K Sound 950THX or maybe the Teufel System 9 THX Ultra? 3-4k be nice to wall mount at the front.
    DIY screen with Screen Goo...probably quite wide too (3m?) as i dont want massive contrast. I like the idea of having the screen proud of the wall by and inch or two with hidden rope light round it...seen some nice ones on youtube.
    Amp and 3d bluray with whats left...1-2k ish

    Floor with quality underlay and dark colour deep pile carpet, walls clad with rockwool boards covered in devore, ceiling drylined with devore possibly glued to it. It should be very black in there!
    I like Kevs pelmet lighting too....

    Steve
     
  25. bighairybloke

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    More thoughts/semi conclusions...
    Looking at a Onkyo tx-nr809 for the amp, seems man enough and 7.1 capable. Which makes me think is it worth adding the extra 2 speakers and having a 7.1 system? I would rather spend the money now rather than have to up grade in a year or so when I get the urge...
    It looks like the Teufel System 9 is no longer sold so looking again at the MK sound setup.
    Oppo BD for £500 seems a good bet. So that brings the amp/player bill down a tad for more money on the speakers and maybe a ready made screen..
    PJ willbe ceiling mounted just to the rear of the main seating position from what I've read seems optimum for a big screen. BD and amp will be mounted at the rear on a shelf I think and I will use a remote control relay so I can control them by pointing at the screen.
    Thinking I'd prefer the centre speaker under the screen rather than behind it.
    Air con will be at the back too for cooling.
    Steve
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
  26. kbfern

    kbfern
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    The Onkyo is a decent amp,I have an earlier version(SR805) but I think you would be wise to go further up the range as it may struggle in your largish room and the M&K deserve a bit better.It all depends on what sort of volumes you want to listen at but if anything close to reference levels the 809 may run out of steam.

    The other option would be the 809 as a processor with a power amp run from the pre outs for the front channels.You could get a used 3/5 channel power amp for around £300-500.
     
  27. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    The only additional bit of advice I would give is don't skimp on the sound system. It doesn't do much good to have a big screen if you don't have equally big sound to go with it. You don't seem too far off, but £1k to £2k with the BluRay included is cutting it thin, workable, but thin. Keep in mind, you will probably need £1k for just the speakers alone.

    Of course, at this point, you are just estimating your budget. It could be you will bring the screen and projector in for less that the allowed budget, and that will leave you more for the Audio equipment.

    Again, I'm not saying you are on the wrong track, just saying, be careful not to cut the audio budget too thin.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  28. kbfern

    kbfern
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  29. bighairybloke

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    Steve, the 1-2k is just for the amp and dvd, i am budgeting 3-5k for the speakers. So 7k for the audio side tops!:D

    Steve
     
  30. bighairybloke

    bighairybloke
    Active Member

    Joined:
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    Thanks chap,

    Im not buying stuff at the mo (busy spending on car restorations...!) it will be summer before i am in buying mode so will miss this offer. Would the 1009be worthy? But its shame to have the other 2 chanels spare... thats why i was thinking the 809, cus it has 7.1 so i can use all its chanels. or am i missing something?

    also, these amps have equalisation gadgets, are they useful? From my last audiophile days in the 80s, i always assumed minimal process was optimal? seems like stuff has moved on!:rolleyes:

    Steve
     

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