Best Digital Connection

Quote removed by Reiner

Had I posted when I first read that I would have been banned by now. Instead I went for a lie down.

THX / Uncle Eric you have said all that needs to be said. Thanks guys

Spectre

I reported this guys insults when he first posted and you replied and asked him to give it up. He has now insulted most people on this forum again. I cannot believe you would allow that then chastise Sean and Eric for having a go back.

Darren
 
Originally posted by Spectre
Ok. I upgraded the sound card in my PC from a £30 to a £150 job. The sound card ouputs optical and coaxial S/PDIF to my AV amplifier.
So really this compares to changing the audio processing part of a DVD player....

I upgraded my cheapo sound card to an SB Audigy. The Cheapo CDRom Player was passing digital data to the card via the PC bus I think. I did notice a big difference. But I guess replacing a soundcard in a PC is like replacing your whole Amplifier.
 
I reported this guys insults when he first posted and you replied and asked him to give it up. He has now insulted most people on this forum again. I cannot believe you would allow that then chastise Sean and Eric for having a go back.

I have just checked on this thread after receiving the report this morning (no access to the net during weekends) and though the above maybe true it should not escalate and allow other users to get back at him in the same manner. This will make things only worse and you are dropping down to the same level.
Please leave it up to the moderators to take action.

Any comments or views to the subject are welcome, but please no insults or "getting back at him in the same way".
By reacting to those kind of comments you only give him what he wants, your attention. Thus the best "punishment" is ignorance: don't reply but instead keep quiet and he will go away soon (one way or the other, be sure of that).

Everybody should have the right to express his/her opinion, even it differs from the mainstream, but please do it in a friendly manner without insulting anyone.
 
I for one realise that he is out for attention/reaction, and i mentioned to another member only this afternoon that we should not dignify his insults with a response,yet i did not long after. The immediate and derogatory response he/she received, was more in relation to the insult (which is what all this is really about) he gave,rather then his views on sound. It is human nature (especially with a group of guys) to respond to an insult, and i have played right in to it.

It wont be the last time this happens i'm sure. I to be honest, come on this forum mainly for a bit of banter and the odd chat. I'm sure we'd all find the av gear we wanted with or without it. But it's good for advice, (when you need it) and there is some good people with a good sense of humour and a common interest. But once in a while it will get hijacked by someone who his just out to stir it.

It's hard to take an insult, even when you know there looking for a reaction
 
Originally posted by Reiner
I reported this guys insults when he first posted and you replied and asked him to give it up. He has now insulted most people on this forum again. I cannot believe you would allow that then chastise Sean and Eric for having a go back.

I have just checked on this thread after receiving the report this morning (no access to the net during weekends) and though the above maybe true it should not escalate and allow other users to get back at him in the same manner. This will make things only worse and you are dropping down to the same level.
Please leave it up to the moderators to take action.

Any comments or views to the subject are welcome, but please no insults or "getting back at him in the same way".
By reacting to those kind of comments you only give him what he wants, your attention. Thus the best "punishment" is ignorance: don't reply but instead keep quiet and he will go away soon (one way or the other, be sure of that).

Everybody should have the right to express his/her opinion, even it differs from the mainstream, but please do it in a friendly manner without insulting anyone.

And what exactly is being done about this behaviour? Ignore it and it will go away?
 
Poor old Richard never really got his answer did he?

The difference between cheap digital cable and expensive cable is a matter for scientific debate. I, however, believe that an audio chain is only as good as it's weakest link.
On a decent system get decent interconnects.
As to the difference between optical and coaxial there are apparent (very, very slight) plus and minus points to both systems, no one really has the definitive answer and I wouldn't threat it – buy and enjoy!

Mark
 
And what exactly is being done about this behaviour? Ignore it and it will go away?

No, but other user should "overlook" or ignore his comments and not respond in the same manner.

The admin/moderators will have to take action. Just report this kind of posts and something will happen as it did just now.
 
uncle eric
Critical Member said:


"but all datastreams are not equal. While they are indeed 1's and 0's as your agent friend points out, at the risk of repeating myself, things happen that effect and influence datastreams. "


So Eric, you now presume to know who my friends are?
 
Originally posted by uncle eric

From the lack of moderation regarding his above comments, I can only assume that technically this is allowed. Unlike swearing for example.
My reply was my moderation. I asked him to take back his comments but he didn't. My finger is poised over the delete button for his registration - but I would like the experts to come out and shoot his argument down in flames before I put an end to this thread.
 
Originally posted by THX 1138
Spectre, this is happening more and more, and i have faith that you will do something about the general decline in attitudes towards members of this forum, I want to continue posting here as does everyone else with a passion for our hobbie. But I am now getting abuse in my e-mail from muppets like this, and feel that it is being condoned by the moderators, or ignored. I am not having a go, just looking for some respect, and some swift action to save this forum.

With regard to email, it's not the responsibility of forum moderators to police your email inbox. The rules don't currently include anything on emailing members. It's a really tricky area.
If I receive an insulting email I usually send an abuse report email to their ISP.
I don't think there has been anything like a serious decline in attitudes towards forum members.
 
Originally posted by MarkB
Poor old Richard never really got his answer did he?


Mark
Mark has hit the nail on the head, look what happens when a certain individual upsets the neighbourhood, our focus switches to him and not the original thread starter who is wanting help and advice. Richard i hope this has not put you off visiting these forums....

Originally posted by spectre
but I would like the experts to come out and shoot his argument down in flames before I put an end to this thread.
Would give me the greatest of pleasure to see this happen, but going by his past replys think we will be open to more insults and abuse, black is white where this individual is concerned, i for one hope you have pushed the button already.
 
I'm afraid I'm not going to churn out scientific advcie here. For a scientific article about digital interconnects and how htey may affect the resulting audio from your amplifier go to TAG's web site and read their paper on their digital incon and the sync link they use between DVD32r and AV32r. I am not saying they are correct just that it is food for the debate.

When Linn brought out the 5103 all those years ago I had a chat with Alan Clark, designer of that item and then working on CD12. I asked him what his opinionj was on best method of digital transmission. This is what he told me. Take it or leave it....
Cheap optical cables can suffer from reflection problems if htey are bent or kinked while a £20-£30 optical lead from anyone usually will not. He could see no benefit oin spending more than that on an optical lead. AT+T's glass optical incon was excellent method of transfer but was not implimented by anyone really.

Co-ax cable was his prefered method of digital transfer. Quality75ohm cable terminated in BNC's.

The Digital cable thing has interested me. I've made cables using CT100 75ohm co-ax and played them against other manufacturers digital incons and video incons. In some cases they are better in some worse. I've heard hideously expensive ones and cheap ones. I believe there is a difference with DVD and a bigger diffrence with CD. My only advice is to listen and make your own mind up. I have no scientific qualifications except my highers......I also cannot play the piano...but I can tell when someone can or can't.

Gordon
 
How did I miss all this, sorry can’t help getting stuck in here. Please let’s keep to the facts and keep personal insults and jibes out please. I am always keen to stir up debate but this doesn’t need inflamatory personal remarks to get points over.

A few comment and additions on the technical front to set right inaccuracies.

Originally posted by Cream
It happened to me (yes even me :)) when I got my first AV amp. I was comparing the difference in the soundtracks on Gladiator, and I tried DD first, and then dts, and as Maximus's hand is brushing through the wheat at the start I was thinking "oh yes that's a lot better, there's much more detail in that sound than with DD" and then I noticied the status display on the amp and realised that I hadn't selected dts properly and it was still on DD. Because I was expecting a difference I heard one.

Cream, if you are demo’ing Gladiator on you first AV amp then you are hardly a long tem user with a wealth of experience then? Those of us who have used PL since their launch (in it’s previous names and incarnations) have nothing to contribute? There are some very experienced people out there, many who have contributed to this thread already. There is more than one God out there you know…..

Originally posted by hermand
i.e. if we accept this is true, then surely it makes no difference to the sound quality (with DD/DTS) what dvd player you have sending the digital signal to the amp/decoder. Therefore a £4000+ Tag DVD32R will sound the same as a £100 Dansai 852 if they are connected to the same amp/decoder. The only way this is not true is if

(a) bobones is wrong, and jitter does make a difference to DD/DTS

or

(b) The stream of zero and ones is different (aside from jitter) - is this possible from a given disc?

Lets put the record straight. Jitter does make a difference to DD/DTS as well as PCM. The effect is more noticeable however with PCM signals. You have only go to try this out on the above mentioned Tag DVD32R with or without the jitter reducing sync link or a jitter reducing DD/DTS aware re-clocking box. Jitter can be a killer to sound and is the single reason for the death of off board DACs in all but high end kit, where proper jitter reducing solutions can be effectively engineered (sync links, N Code, C code etc NOT PLL etc).

Every DVD / CD player I have ever come across can output the correct 0s and 1s. This is not what is in issue here. The digital interface has the ability to transmit other things other than the digital bit. Uncle Eric has eluded to this already.

Many convention solutions to jitter problems have actually made things worse rather than better just because they tried to solve a problem they didn’t properly understand. Just look at the poor grounding arrangements for the early reclocking boxes! A disaster area until people cut tracks! High bandwidth SPDIF connects might not be the right way to go for good sound as they also transmit all the “nasties” as well. Limit the bandwidth and much can be filtered out naturally whilst still getting the 0s and 1s through (why Toslink optical connections often sounds better on HCPCs and cheaper digital products?). Similarly, rise time isn’t necessarily better being faster. There is much more to this argument than first appears re ‘the right 0s and 1s are getting through’ so nothing else matters. The 50p coax 75ohms (well screened I hope) is all you really need to get the signal into the processor. There is a big difference in the construction of these and proper screening and termination is very important. If you transmit “nasties” as well as the 0s and 1s some amps can deal with these through filtering. Others may well be overloaded by these non 0s and 1s type signals, adversely effecting the sound. They both have the same 0s and 1s however. Optical isolation may be a neat solution however.

It is all down to how you engineer your transmission standard. Personally for basic / standard kit (inc HCPCs), where there might be loads of “nasties” I recommend Toslink, as the optical connector can offer some isolation. Please spend some money on a decent one however as cheapo ones suffer from breaks and reflections that cause more problems than they solve. For better quality kit where the kit is more resistant to out of band “nasties”, then a well screened and terminated 75 ohms coax is all you need. I just wish people would use BNCs rather than RCAs which cause their own reflection problems! RCAs are not 75 Ohm connections for soldered cable where BNCs can be. Whether this is a 50p/m DIY or a £40 off the shelf unit is down to personal preference / DIY abilities / time. For those who want the best signal transfer the AES XLR balance 110 ohm works very well when correctly terminated. However my favourite connection method is wideband ST connectors just because it is a quality engineered interface rather than the compromise fudges that we more normally have to deal with. The latter two interfaces have the advantage of being able to work over much longer distances effectively.


Why is the Tag so highly spoken about? The Tag DVD transport has jitter levels from DVD as low as the BEST single box CD players. Just look at the Miller test results and yes it can do this with a 50p/m 75 ohms well screened coax!

Don’t forget that many of the techniques for reducing these “nasties” are actually power supply mods! We are back to Kimber weave mains cables and screened mains cables. Cable is cheap and is one of the smallest cost in manufacturing a quality lead so don’t get too hung up on 50p/m figures. A £90 lead will probably have spent no more than £3 on the cable. Quality plugs, quality solder, expert manufacturing all cost money long before people start putting their mark ups on the cable.

Yes some of us do have some qualifications!
 
Sorry, I seem to have sparked off something of a heated debate :) (I'm new here, is it always like this?)

Thanks btw to Nic Rhodes for actually answering my question. Here's some more questions:

(I think I understand whats going on with PCM, so for the purposes of this discussion, can we leave it aside)

1) Is, as Bobones says, the DD/DTS signal buffered and reclocked - if so how does jitter affect the DD/DTS decompression and/or the D/A conversion?

2) In a typical amp/decoder what is the signal reclocked against?

3) Does the DD/DTS signal contain timing information? or does all timing have to be derived from sources external to the audio information itself?


Cheers

Herman

(Tomorrow Herman will ask an innocent question about politics :))
 
Hi hermand. Don't worry, it's not always like this. Please don't let this experience put you off! I have found the vast majority of members on this forum to be knowledgeable and friendly. It does tend to be connection questions that kick off the trouble though...
 
Yeh...... good natured, fun loving guys and gals.

ashearer....BTW my tele is better than yours coz it cost more....

:D
 
Originally posted by Nic Rhodes
Lets put the record straight. Jitter does make a difference to DD/DTS as well as PCM.
Let's put the record even straighter. No it does not.

With DD/DTS the data is sent in encoded error-checked frames and is completely reclocked by the amp.

This makes the rest of your post somewhat irrelevent, although I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would be swayed by the jargon.

You're also ignoring the fundamental fact that until the datastream is decoded by the amp it carries NO inherent tonal information. It is compressed data. It is essentially scrambled. If you could listen to it it would sound like white noise. It is impossible for a DVD player, or indeed a digital interconnect, to make a DD soundtrack sound "smoother" or "more musical" or whatever a high-end reviewer will claim because the audible information in the soundtrack does not exist until after it has been decoded by the amp into 5.1 channels of audio.

This compressed data is sent in frames encoded to Dolby's AC-3 spec. If just one bit of the frame is wrong the amp throws away the whole frame, and all you will hear for a short while is silence, until the next perfect frame comes along.

One wrong bit. It doesn't matter if the cause of that wrong bit is a cheap DVD player (it won't be), or a cheap digital interconnect (it won't be), or because the rack your player is on isn't expensive enough (chuckle). If you are hearing any sound at all from your amp then the data has got through PERFECTLY and what you're hearing cannot be improved by altering anything downstream of the amp.

Now I don't expect you to believe me. But will you believe it when you read it in the Dolby AC-3 spec? Have you heard of Dolby? Very clever chaps. They agree with me. Or to be uncharacteristically modest, I agree with them.

http://www.dolby.com/tech/desgnac3.pdf

I draw your attention to the sections regarding error correction.

Yes some of us do have some qualifications!
Indeed.
 
Eric

Why don't you directly address the reference provided by your friend Cream?

Anyway, looking at your recommended site (www.tagmclaren.com/great/sounds.asp) I found technical briefing issue 10 on Cables and Interconnects, - you must have missed it. (Chuckle*3)

Well, from what I understand it seems to say alot about impurities etc affecting the musical waveform of analogue signals, but seems to be strangely silent on how this affects digital signals. . Of course, I don't know, because I'm no expert. I'm just interested in following the debate. And at the moment, I would say you are losing!

PS
I've got a lot of qualifcations - in fact more degrees than a thermometer - but the problem is none of them is relevant to this debate.
 
Lastagent,
I'm sorry, did I ask you for your qualifications or are you getting mixed up with your alter ego, scream. The qualification theme was discussed with scream. Or are you just confused? Which one are you tonight?
Ever see that Tommy Cooper sketch where he does split roles. I suppose you must have.

Its funny how highly educated people never talk about degrees, MA's or pretend they are clever. No need really is there. They know they are.
However, its generally the other way round at the shallow end.
Careful you dont drop your thermometer.

bye bye

Eric x 1
 
Guys, please stick to the topic and don't start this all over again, else I lock this thread ...
 
I think we can debate this without the personal stuff so please don't kill the thread. Why shouldn't we be questioning our fundamental beliefs about av and hifi? I'm a computer network guy who's been into hifi in a small way since 1979 and bought my first dolby surround tv over 10 years ago. I have no agenda other than to separate for myself the truth from the myths surrounding this technology.

Nic puts forward some nice sounding, but ultimately unconvincing arguments. Firstly, no one has shown how jitter can exist in a DD/DTS datastream given that it is compressed and encapsulated. Cream's argument (however arrogantly put) is fairly solid wouldn't you say?

Nor do the points made about signal noise and other out of band artifacts affecting the datastream hold much sway. How could computer networks exists if we couldn't reliably deliver a digital datastream over a piece of wire. As long as the datastream is intact, it doesn't matter how messy the signal on the wire is. I can reliably send any type of file (including wav files ripped from cds) thousands of miles over the internet thanks to digital transmission and error correction; a metre or two in my living room is a dawdle in comparison.

The physical limitations of cables used for ethernet 10base2 (BNC and coax) or 100baseT (rj45 and cat5) are never going to be stretched in a hifi environment. Any up to spec cable (be it costing 50p or £50) will do and they'll only be a problem if they are literally falling apart. No one is really arguing that the actual bits arriving at the amp are different anyway, are they?

So, who really are the flat-earthers in this debate? Surely, the greater leap of faith is to believe that cables and dvd transports can make any difference at all (for DD/DTS playback), never mind a significant, audible difference?
 
The thing is, that it as now become an almost pointless debate, as those for, and those against, will not swallow each others views .no matter what research they post . l
 

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