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Best 42" plasma = Philips 42PF9966

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by jakesmith, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. jakesmith

    jakesmith
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    That was a slightly inflamatory subject I guess - anyone saying any model is best probably would..

    I *almost* bought above model - based purely on the reading between the lines in reviews I'd read in the a bunch of UK magazines _and_ my wish to view for the time being at least mostly low quality output on it (e.g. Sky) for the time being - until when/if HD is available in some form..

    But : I went to see in shops - as was appauled by graininess of some of what was shown - it was playing a DVD demo disc with extracts from the film U-571. The graininess was most visible on the skyline in some shots very pixelated - also visible in general on faces etc..

    1) I notice there is some pixelation on all large tvs at least without being hooked up to HD source (which i have not seen) and I can understand why - processing required to scale up and interpolate etc.. But the philips in my opinion seen so much worse then others - even the very cheap ones.
    That contradicted all I'd read about Pixel Plus 2 and tv's ability to make most of poor source.

    2) I was closer than I normally would be I think - becuase shop setup was not the best environment - so it was more obvious than it might otherwise have been.

    3) I didn't really see glory (if there is any) in Ambilight component - but am hoping for the best *if* I buy it in right environment (I know it is expensive model but if it really is better than rivals then that is ok)


    My real question(s) are:

    + Do you all reckon Philips reviews are all wrong?

    + I'd considered Pioneer 434HDE also, though it didn't 'sound' as good with poor video sources as I say.

    + Should I be considering something else, barring in mind - HD is a must for me - I might be hooking up to home brew PVR soon and want HD capability + but it must be able to do good job of e.g. Sky source. I don't really want to go for a panel non-tuner model - I want to just plug it in a go for starters..



    Thanks in advance for any help / suggestions..
     
  2. MAW

    MAW
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    Your home brew PVR, what might that be, precisely? If you are talking PC, then I'm afraid a monitor only is the only route, all others are nobbled in some way, like the Pioneer digital input being not very PC friendly, and the VGA port being stuck on the front.
    Your experiences with Philips are not unique, nor are they universal, there have been a few members waxing lyrical over philips, but I'd sooner have a full body wax then own one, even if a gift, I simply can't watch them, and you've seen why. If you want a TV, it's a straight fight between the Panasonic Viera and the Pioneer XDE. You pay your money and take your choice, but these are the best.
     
  3. hornydragon

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    PHD7 Panasonic????? SOUNDS ideal
     
  4. lemke

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    jakesmith,

    I've been doing a lot of comparing (visual I mean). And I'm not gonna say the Philips is the best. But I don't know what you have seen. It doesn't fit. And I'm a nitwither when it comes to pixels and graininess.

    But there were a lot of systems worse than the Philips, like the Pioneer 435. HDTV excellent (maybe a bit better than , but for TV source really bad. And the Pio is even costing a lot more.

    Panny was also very good. But IMHO, the Philips was better, certainly for TV ... and DVD also. You don't need component prog. scan. Besides that,the PHD7 is not available here (so I couldn't compare that one), only the 6 series ... and the PA30.

    And LG and other systems can't compete at all with the 42pf9966. You also have to make compromises. So for me, the only thing was to go for the Philips. And I have no second thoughts.

    Greetz
    Lem
     
  5. jakesmith

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    Thanks for relpy, home brew PVR = mythtv, though may consider other solutions in future..

    Hm, I'd been hoping at some later date, to hook my plasma up to my PC via a DVI cable (preferrably) and get at the full raw resolution of the screen; in philips case I thought 1024x768 - looking at the philips spec. it has DVI - but resolutions confusing:

    http://www.consumer.philips.com/con...&proxybuster=GNYNMGCKMRI4LJ0RMRCSHQVHKFSESI5P


    Another screen I had considered was the Hitachi Platara 42PD5300 which has DVI(direct to screen) or RGB PC via seperate media box - and has resolution of 1024x1024 ...

    Am I not going to able to use this or any other plasma out there to access full resolution from a PC??


    Ignoreing that major issue for the moment, can you tell me if the Viera or Panasonic TH-42PW7 (seen that recommended here also) - has something similar to Pixel Plus 2 - i.e. scales up low quality 480 scan line intelligently, calculating pixels based on those around etc. ?

    I think I'm more confused as to what to go for than ever :(
     
  6. jakesmith

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    Well I may just plump for Philips in mire of confusion..

    PHD7 not avail, isn't it? Isn't it listed here: (?)
    http://www.discountaudiovision.co.uk/acatalog/Pana_Plasma_Display.html
     
  7. ReHaBWales

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  8. MAW

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    PHD7 is available in UK, no problem, and is one of 2 sensible choices for anything to do with a PC, if you value your sanity and want 1:1 pixel mapping. The ALIS screens will shorten your life to no avail, it can't be done, and as I say, every single TV plasma I can think of apart from an LG has some grave drawback or other for PC use, and for me at any rate, the LG is fatally flawed by the badge and all it implies. Get a PHD7 or a pioneer MXE1, you won't regret either, as a TV or for PC use.
     
  9. hornydragon

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  10. jakesmith

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    Ok, I believe you :)

    But am unsure where they would leave me interms of crappy old Sky or bog standard DVD inputs or other STB box is concerned..
    I think I need to do more research on PHD7 - I see a long list of accessories and I think the implication is that I need some boards or boxes to cope with whatever inputs I have, or have I got wrong end of stick? I'd probably want a tuner (does it have one)- even though I have sky and I want (later) DVI input from PC and 2 or 3 scart inputs.
    From a quick glance at :

    http://www.ivojo.co.uk/panasonic-th-42phd7.htm

    I might be limited as only 3 slots, so say 1 DVI, 1 Scart & 1 Tuner board, is that right??

    The expansion board setup sounds very flexiblie and techy indeed - I like the sound of it - *but* what kind of user freindly tv will I end up - i.e. I hope it is all seemlessly integrated and on-screen menus don't like a factory setup menu etc.. :) -

    Any advice greatly appreciated, given above requirements.. and wish to display these low-res inputs to there upmost (i.e. something akin to Pixel Plus 2 processing)
     
  11. jakesmith

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  12. MAW

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    AVM is fuji's motion processing, yes. Still no match for Panasonic/pioneer though.
    Tuner wise, a freeview box would be the way to go, Panasonic's tuner is not terribly good. The best way to achieve all your connections is with an AV amplifier as a video and audio 'hub'. Something like a Onkyo 602 has 3 component video inputs, and will upconvert any s-video or composite inputs to component. Thus 1 board in the screen, no nonsense about trying to see menus, it will cope with that too. You put a component converter on sky, get a Netgem freeview from BT for £65, it does component video already, component out from DVD, s-video from any consoles, this leaves VGA free for a PC, or add a DVI card later. And you get superb 7.1 surround as well. How smart is that? The amp is £450, 130 for the converter for sky, 65 for the component board, and some speakers, from £150ish up to whatever takes your fancy.
     
  13. jakesmith

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    Thanks for all the info, still have some questions though :) ..
    I'm convinced that Panasonic TH-42PHD7 is superior in terms of acheivable quality, but still have my doubts about low grade inputs whether via an AV amp or not.. In my experience I've been unable to get satisfactory demos even of the basics to compare two sets, so don't hold out much hopes of going into this much details in any retailer..

    So again all your value advice greatly appreciated!

    1) Will a Panasonic th-42phd7 connected to lowly S-Video (or even composite source) be able to match quality of rivals that use PP2 or similar processing algo's. I can see Panny has various processing features, but are any/all going to do good scaling and interpolation of 480 line image they'll get from the Sky/STB/DVD Box.

    I see link to scalers and deinterlacers under the panny on ivojo site, make we wonder whether that magic needed to match rivals - sorry if I'm deluded - but I hope you can see where I'm coming from...

    2) Supposing I have a surround system already, they point of Onkyo system is just to offer me more inputs (to it) that I can feed to Panny right?
    Is it remote controlled do you know? (yet another remote :( )

    3) Not that I think this is really an option for me (cost prohibitive) I imagine with LCD screens you can directly use there stated resoltion. Is that true?

    Thanks all in advance.
     
  14. MAW

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    LCD or plasma = no difference as far as scaling requirements. The internal processing on the PHD models is already in excess of the competition, they just don't call it any stupid names that's all. A scaler is just the icing on the cake, and we all like that. On the subject of quality signals, what's the point of a £3k display connected up with composite? It will do it's best, but you shouldn't expect miracles.
    An upconverting amp offers more connections, yes, and gives you 3 highest quality component video inputs with only 1 board and 1 cable connection, and makes life easier because you can 'assign' audio inputs to the matching video input, so when you press TV, or DVD on the amp remote, you get the picture and the sound, not so much fiddling around. Most big reciever remotes have a learning/preprogram funtion to operate other kit, it might do all if you are lucky.
     
  15. hornydragon

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    thatwere the Iscan HD comes into its own has one input on screen (built in VGA if you like.....................has 4+ inputs (and digital audio delay) 2x component and 2x S-video and 2 Composite i think can use RGBS (scart RGB) uisng component and composite IIRC and S-video and output them all at a very nicely Scaled 720p etc too match screen res can also use it via DVi and has passthrough so you still keep your DVi input on screen if you do go down that path.£1000 very spent.....Will last you much longer than the panel!!!! Suggest you go have a demo there are retailers about with this system and can set it up how you want it for a demo even take your own DVD etc along!
     
  16. jakesmith

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    Right, I thought LCD's might not be so "... nobbled in some way..".

    I don't expect miracles, but seing as I won't be seing HD for at least 18 months I reckon - I'd like to have as good as it gets in terms of low bandwidth images on a large viewing screeen until then. You might argue, pay <2k now for 42" SD and upgrade to 42" HD later, but I'd prefer to make purchase now - it's maybe false economy if HD's are drastically cheaper by the time HD is available.. and/or formats may have changed - I know..

    AFAICT - if I went for SD (e.g. Panasonic TH-42PWD6) it would cost me ~ £1,675.55 or £1,850.63 for TH-42PW7B (I've no idea if that is better), so I'd be saving ~ £788 compared with price of TH-42PHD7 (£2,463.98)



    Ok, sounds like _best_ way to go - I know v. little about AV amps and nothing wrt to video inputs on AV ampts - I had never heard of them before you mentioned.

    So I will need :

    1) Panasonic th-42phd7 (worth looking to Pioneer? - I'd be silly not to I suppose)
    2) Freeview box with composite output.
    3) Something like Onkyo 602 - mostly in my case to supply enough inputs to TV (expensive switching)
    4) may need a universal programmable remote to control AV and STB's and TV if it has > 1 input.

    Or I could limit my connections to absolute necessary (and use simple switch etc.) and buy RGB + Composite cards for panny.


    Is there not a single 42" HD plasma out there that offers all this without the need to DIY - really all I wanted _now_ was a good HD tv with reasonable built-in tuner/menuing system and speakers ( do I hear gasps of despair? )
    I then wanted to build on that _later_ by using amp, maybe external tuner etc..


    2) Scart RGB
    3) Leave open for DVI later.
     
  17. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Fujitsu 50XHA????? (50") Pioneer 434/435 units but if you are buying an HD panel you can either onkyo/denon route you NEED surround sound with an HD panel (any plasma) But to get the real benefit you need a scaler....
     
  18. JetJockey

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    Hi HornyDaragon and MAW.

    Just how much of an improvement do these scalers make to a 42" Plasma panel, particularly an SD panel? Is it night and day, or very subtle? I thought the SD panels just downconverted it again. :confused:

    Also, is the scaling/processing in the Panny HD panels that much better than the SD Panels?

    Also, what is the difference between thPanny 6 series and newer 7 series?

    Thanks, Gerald. :)
     
  19. MAW

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    Ha, there are 1 or 2 LCD's that can do native from a PC, and decent in other respects, but are 3.5k or more before you sort anything else out, or are only 32" maybe. There are no 42" HD plasma based TVs that fulfil your requirements. If you got a tuner module for the panasonic it simply disables all other inputs, ludicrous! What you seek is what many members here would also love. Currently the only way is to build the system yourself, or pay someone like me to do it for you, we call this custom install! Liam, Joe, and to an extent Alastair at AV sales do this too, though maybe with less of a leaning than me, so basically you read and learn here, or pay someone to achieve your integrated home entertainment dreams. Most of us are happy to answer questions here, it improves the general knowlege base, generates business and I learn something every day!
     
  20. MAW

    MAW
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    Hiya jetjockey, clearly you need to see a scaler in action with an SD panel. 2 ways of setting up, both are valid. One is to have the scaler scale to panel native, the other to 720p. The plasmas seem to like 720p, and of course they like native. The deinterlacing is of the highest quality too, and various other 'image fixes' are incorporated, which have a dramatic effect on broadcast TV. The thing is also a useful video hub for the man who has everything, several consoles, a PC for flight sim, not that you need that, DVD, PVR, sky etc. I have an install where they have 6 sources. 3 component to the amp, sky on RGB and sync to the scaler, s-vhs to scaler and a video camera. The amp output is fed to component in on the scaler. You'd need a £400 switch box to do this really well anyway.
     
  21. jakesmith

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    Wow £1000 :eek: - that's hefty. Hope I'm not becoming a right royal PITA with my questions, but ....

    1) What is end-result difference between Panny upscaling a (e.g.) composite 480i input to it's native resolution and plugging composite into iScan and pluging iScan DVI to Panny? It was not obvious what gain was from product description to me. It all comes down to the nature and cleverness of the scaling and noice reduction algo's I think.

    It sounds very good again from a technical standpoint, bascially seperating out operations into functional boxes and is kind of at the heart of what I was getting at at the outset - if you do need this £1000 piece of equipment to do it nicely for Panny (i.e. Panny does such an inferior task itself of upscaling) - do other more less techy, more consumer oriented plasma do it for you almost as well, e.g. PP2 - I know Philips plasma's are probably not the way to go now, if only because can't get at raw res. via RGB or DVI inputs for PC connectivity - but even so trying to grasp pros and cons.. and it _sounds_ like some of these consumer plasma have some IScan type processing power.. ???
     
  22. MAW

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    No, none of them come within 1000 miles of an iscan, and the panasonic and pioneer business panels (MXE models) do at very least as good as any, and I mean any, consumer TVs and in most cases way in excess. Just that the iscan and it's Lumagen competitor is a league apart, that's all. Still, I'm sure you know about the law of diminishing returns, and we are all head up a*** about high quality video here, don't be fooled into thinking your HD plasma will be pants without one. You will certainly be able to see the difference though, it's not like trying to hear the difference between 2 brilliant speaker cables! Our anoraks are not that ridiculous.
     
  23. hornydragon

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    some but no where near the capabilities of an Iscan HD go get a demo and decide your self......its the only way!
     
  24. jakesmith

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    >I'm not getting you down, am I?<

    Yes! - Despite being amazingly helpful and a font of knowledge! :))

    Ok, the iScan product info doesn't really go into detail as to what you referred to as "various other 'image fixes' are incorporated"

    But you are convinced more power and better algorithms at work than are at work in Pixel Plus 2 or similar systems it seems. Ok I have nothing else to go on really.

    Main problem is, convincing at it is this makes one heck of an expensive 42" system - and I have not unlimited funds obviously, iScan + Panny 42PHD7 + one card etc..

    hmm I might have to compromise something.. time to think and stop bothering - maybe back for more questions later though! :)
     
  25. jakesmith

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    I should perhaps open this as another thread..
    but contributions here been so helpful so far and is related to previous point.

    Can someone tell me exactly why it is that _non_ Panny PHD7, Pioneers XDE and their ilk cannot be hooked up a suitably configured PC that outputs e.g. 1024 x 768 ?

    You see, what I don't understand is that the consumer TV's like the two I was originally looking at (Philips 42PF9966 or Pioneer 434HDE) which claim res of 1024x768 and HD future proof etc.. how are they going to fed that HD signal when it comes along?? i.e. what's so different about a PC feeding them??

    Cheers
     
  26. JetJockey

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    Hi Maw

    Many thanks. A pretty convincing argument for a scaler, I think I will have to get one. Which one though, the Iscan or the Lumagen? And what of the switching capabilities?

    Basically, I have a DV79 with progressive out as RGB or Component with sync on Green (Oh, and HDMI), and a Sky box with RGB and seperate sync). Do I buy an RGB to Component converter for the Sky Box, then feed it through the switching AVR 300, together with the DVD, then through the scaler, then to the plasma. Or............... Do I feed the Sky RGB through the scaler, then through the Component converter, allowing I assume individual scaling/sizeing etc, then to the AVR300, then plasma (PWD5). Or......... Do I buy an RGB to VGA converter, fit it before or after the scaler (will it work after) and feed Sky to the Plasma VGA socket and DVD to the component BNC inputs on the Plasma. Or................

    Bugger, lost my thread, confused myself. :confused:

    It all sounds fairly simple but there is obviously an optimal solution. I would hate to invest in a scaler and find I had bought the wrong one or connected it inefficiently. :blush:

    Gerald. :suicide:

    P.S. Don't mention Flight Sim. I get a bit twitchy. I am in the sim for two days at Heathrow Thursday and Friday. Dohh!! :rolleyes:
     
  27. hornydragon

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    Gerald Sky into DVDO Iscan HD via RGBS connection a rare but beautiful BEAST!
     
  28. MAW

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    6 monthly check is it? Best of luck, at least you always walk away from a simulator landing! If you have time in your schedule I am 15 miles from Heathrow, gatwick direction.

    Scalers and PCs to TV plasmas, where do you want me to start! OK, the beginning then. For some reason, all the TV plasmas have their VGA port on the front. There are no issues to speak of in connecting via analogue VGA as long as you don't mind the vga cable in your face. DVI/HDMI, on the pioneer it accepts only video resolutions, no 1024x 768, no, really really really. It just doesn't. It's not in the HDMI specification, and Pioneer stuck on a 'minimum' implementation, yes, on their flagship plasma. The HDMI spec is a 80 page document, anyone with no life drop me a line, I'll email it to you. This little feature, or lack of it, is normal with HDMI, and will almost certainly be found on the new Panasonic HDMI video board. You need the DVI board for computer/native plasma resolutions. Awful, isn't it, to quote my avatar.
     
  29. jakesmith

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    Now I think this clarifies in my mind an ideal (in current marker) system, i.e. Panny PHD42 + DVI card + iScan HD

    This is going to cost me ~ £2500 + £133 + £1000 = £3633

    Which I'm not sure I'm willing to shell out at the moment - I had a budget of <=3k - but for that I thought I was getting all of this in effect in single box with tuner and speakers and ambient - I now the know the error of my ways..

    The iScan sounds great, but does more than I want I think, I don't need all the pulldown stuff it does etc and signal conversion, but do want its connectivity and scaling. Would anyone care to suggest a 2nd best HD system at a lower budget?
    e.g. compromisnig on plasma screen that does reasonable scaling job even if not as good as iScan's..
     
  30. hornydragon

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    Get the panny and save for the Iscan there are no more capable screens unless you spend more.......... PHD +Speakers + tuner (there is one available will come in at around £3k but i would look at a video switching amp just something simple like a Pio 714 some nice stereo or 5.1 speaker and a freeview box add to the panny screen well under £3k even have enough left for a Pronto or Harmony H655 and add the iscan later.................there is anotheroption i can explain if you want me too


    PS MAW Send me a copy of the HDMI spec mate......
     

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