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Bermuda Triangles

Discussion in 'TVs' started by Zaichik, Jul 16, 2004.

  1. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    Sorry to burden you with yet another "issue" with my new Panny TX28DTX10 100 Hz IDTV but, as a newbie to widescreen TVs, I am uncertain of what it normal and what isn't. I'd really appreciate your advice on the following:

    Over the last few days, I've noticed that there is a triangular area on both sides of the screen (about half way down) in which fine, closely spaced diagonal lines can sometimes be seen (usually when the image is dark). The bases of the triangles run along the sides of the screen. At first, I thought it was just the "grain" of the screen construction I was seeing, but, of course, that runs vertically and not diagonally.

    Any ideas what this might be and whether it is fixable?

    Thanks as ever for your help. :lease:
     
  2. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    I guess that I'll have to raise this with the engineer that I'm calling out to look at the ongoing geometry problems. I expect I'll be told it's just another "feature" which is within the manufacturer's specifications. :(
     
  3. Digiman

    Digiman
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    is that watching freeview / dvd / all?
     
  4. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    It's with all sources, but is most noticeable on Freeview. I went into two shops yesterday (including the Panasonic Shop) and the display models didn't seem to have this "feature".
     
  5. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    I've had a closer look and it is the fine lines which make up the screen which are, for some reason, becoming visible at the edges of the picture. Close up, it's like a net effect but from further away it blends together to look like diagonal lines. It doesn't appear to be screen, but the picture, as, if you resize the picture, the effect follows it.

    Anyone know what this is?
     
  6. Digiman

    Digiman
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    have you set up the tv for brightness contrast etc. If you have the digital video essentials disk have a look at convergence. i found it made the line structure more visible on uniform backgrounds.
     
  7. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    Thanks, I'll have a look at that. (EDIT: How do I adjust convergence using DVE?)

    However, could what I am experiencing be moire, or does that only appear in 16:9 images ( i.e. at the edge of the screen rather than the picture - what I'm experiencing appears in 14:9 and 4:3 as well)?
     
  8. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    Anyone know - I've got an engineer coming this afternoon and I want to be ready... ;)
     
  9. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    The engineer has just been, and he said that he couldn't see the effect I was describing. However, he did note that the lines that make up the screen are more widely spaced at the edges than they are in the middle and, as a result, may be more visible. When I said that I could not see the same effect with the same set in two different shops, he said that they would all be manufactured the same and that there was no adjustment that could be made to compensate. He also said that the set wasn't faulty.

    I agree that it is probably the screen lines that I am seeing highlighted against certain colour backgrounds, surely you shouldn't be able to see them when sitting at normal viewing distance.

    I'm not sure what to do next. :confused:
     
  10. Breitling

    Breitling
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    you will have an element of curvature on traditional tube tv's espec wide screens.
     
  11. Digiman

    Digiman
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    You can't adjust convergence yourself but it may contribute to the problem you are seeing. When the engineer was there, could you see the problem but he couldn't? What is your viewing distance? I find that about half way between normal viewing distance and the TV (about 5 feet) you can see the line structure on a light single colour background. This is probably about normal but I dont think poor convergence helps. The reason I think it may be made worse by convergence is that I notice it more at the sides of the screen where the convergence is poor. The dtx10 is not an SR (high res) tube so I guess you are going to see the lines from further away than on say the PD30. Has anyone apart from you seen the problem?
     
  12. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    No, the engineer couldn't see it, or at least he said he couldn't, despite me telling him exactly where to look. I generally sit about 6 feet from the set and it's glaringly obvious to me. From a distance, the lines look diagonal, but close up it's more like a net effect, because only bits of each line are visible. My wife can see the problem now I've pointed it out to her. The middle of the screen looks fine, even close up.

    What I don't understand is why I couldn't see lines on the store sets when I specifically looked for them. If it was a "feature" of the tube design, like the engineer said, surely it would afflict all sets and not just mine! I've asked them to send out another engineer with better eyesight. Without an engineer's report, there's no way they'll exchange the set.
     
  13. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    I've just had a Panasonic authorised engineer out to look at the set, after the store's engineer couldn't (or wouldn't) see what I was describing. The Panasonic engineer could at least see what I was on about. He said it was the phosphor dots becoming visible which was causing the problem. He's going to consult with Panasonic and see what can be done. I wouldn't mind if the patterns/lines were only slightly visible, but they're blatantly obvious even from some distance away, and they're spoiling my enjoyment of the set.

    I'm expecting the engineer to come back and say that it's within specification, but whether it is or it isn't is of no interest to me a) because I don't want a set that has this "feature", particularly when b) I've seen 2 identical sets in different stores (and lots of others of different makes) which didn't have the same problem.

    I'm really cheesed off about this. :mad:
     
  14. Digiman

    Digiman
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    I think you did well to get a Panasonic engineer to look at it. Keep plugging away. You'll get there in the end.
     
  15. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    The Panasonic engineer has just phoned me - he says that the problem is moire and that little can be done about it. Panasonic's official line is that increasing the width and height of the picture may help. I mentioned the advice on here about defocusing the tube and he said that Panasonic did not recommend this.

    He's going to do me a report to take back to the retailer. I'd be grateful for views on the advice and what I should do next. :lease:

    (Panasonic have sent me a cheque for the callout charge I paid to the engineer last week - not bad service from them.)
     
  16. Digiman

    Digiman
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    I think what they say sounds sensible. Increase/decrease slightly height and width of picture and it may well go away / get better. Failing that see what the report says and use report to get set replaced. The fact that little can be done is not your problem and is the best reason to have the set replaced - it clearly isn't a problem with all sets. The fact they sent you a cheque confirms that there is a genuine fault.
    If you bought a new car that wont start and the dealer tells you little can be done - you are not going to keep it, are you?
     
  17. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    I think I've got the retailer riled! I sent them a long and detailed letter, quoting the Sale of Goods Act, and it's clear from the phone call I received this afternoon that they're investigating my version of events, probably with a view to shooting me down in flames! I'll 'ave 'em - I will. :laugh:
     
  18. CLH

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    Not Sound and Vision were they?? They've stopped corresponding with me at all since I mentioned my legal rights.

    If it was them, don't hold your breath for any resolution.
     
  19. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    No it wasn't, for which I'm glad after hearing about your experience. I've never had any problems with this particular retailer (even when there have been issues with the goods) and have bought a lot of stuff from them. I'm really disappointed that they're being so difficult about this TV.

    Are you still pursuing S&V, or have you admitted defeat?
     
  20. CLH

    CLH
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    I'm pursuing Panasonic UK for their assistance. If they can come and sort out all my other problems great.

    Thing is I'll be left with the "jumping" NTSC component problem so if I can get them to report on that then I'll be straight back onto them.

    I've now managed to set at least 6 picture modes geometry straight. It took me absolutely hours and is not something I should have had to do. Still the picture through RGB and Component PAL is now pretty good. Unfortunately I'm stuck with NTSC through RGB. Hardly ideal.

    Shame that you're having an issue with a retailer you've spent a lot of money at. Personally I think theres a wide range of retailers who are just happy to get CRT's out of the door and then bury their head afterwards.
     
  21. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    VICTORY!!!!


    A "second line" engineer from the store has just been and he's accepted that there's a fault with the tube. They've agreed to exchange the set. :D :D :D :D

    I just hope the next one's not worse! :eek:

    PS It wasn't moire after all, it seems. The first thing the engineer tried was defocusing the tube and it had no effect.
     
  22. Zaichik

    Zaichik
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    Gaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhhhh! :mad: :mad: :mad:

    My replacement TV has just been delivered, and it's as bad as the previous one. In fact, in some ways it's worse, because I'd got the geometry pretty much perfect on the old one, and it's way out on this one. The picture doesn't seem as sharp, either.

    The really annoying thing is that I told the delivery blokes that I wanted to see whether the new one was any better before they took the old one away but, while I was setting up the new one, and before I could do anything to stop him, one of them had picked up the old TV and thrown it out through my front door into the box that the new one came in. :mad:

    The only consolation is that the delivery guys saw the fault and wrote on their delivery sheet that it had the same problem as the last one, so hopefully, when I decide what I'm going to do next, the retailer will play ball.

    I really am beginning to wish that I'd never thought of getting a widescreen TV. :mad: :mad:
     

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