Benefits

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by BISHI, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. BISHI

    BISHI
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  2. Squiffy

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    The usual rubbish.

    I'm sick and tired of the stat under number 5.

    As I continually repeat, I accept that fraud (i.e. claims outside the rules) are low.

    The issue is what the rules do allow. e.g. child benefit to the children of immigrants who do not live here. Winter weather payments to pensioners who don't live in the UK, etc.
     
  3. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Cost of bribing the electorate. Of course it doesn't include the cost of the bureacracy to collect and distribute the tax. Nice little earner.
     
  4. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Exactly.
     
  5. BISHI

    BISHI
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    You mean a bit like the 'rules' that permit so much tax avoidance.?
     
  6. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Tax avoidance= legally protecting yourself from coercive theft.
     
  7. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Yes absolutely.
     
  8. potshot

    potshot
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    3 times more money is lost to the rich in tax avoidance than we pay the unemployed in benefits. I wonder what the true amount of tax avoidance is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  9. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    ROFLMAO How on earth is that possible...
     
  10. potshot

    potshot
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    Maybe I should of 5 times the amount. Job seekers allowance costs £7 billion a year the estimate of tax avoidance is around £38 billion. What really annoys about tax avoidance is the rich person does not need the money and its done because of greed. The person on JSA will starve if they don't get their pittance.

    I think there is a real problem when the press and government goes on how large the welfare bill is, but they don't tell joe public the break down break down of the welfare bill. Less than 3% goes to the unemployed but they try and make out 100% goes to the unemployed. The largest part of the welfare bill is pension and it is going to grow and grow. I have nothing against people getting their pension and maybe one day I will get my pension if they don't move the goal post age anymore. I am expecting to get my pension when I am 80 the way it is going.
     
  11. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    The quote of the day, bless...

    So if the person on JSA is starving, maybe that will drive them to find a job? You know, be cruel to be kind and all that...
     
  12. Toko Black

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    And there we get down to it.
     
  13. potshot

    potshot
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    Like Cameron said he is cutting benefits to give hope, I would like to know what does to make people miserable and take all this hope away he is giving out. You are full as much bull as Cameron. There are around 500'000 vacancies in the UK with over 2 million unemployed officially and the unofficially number is near 8 million. Most jobs go to people already in employment and for somebody to find a job who have been unemployed more than 6 months its extremely difficult. Then we have every tom dick and harry coming into the country and some employers will only employ people from other countries because they can pay them less. My brother is a chippy and he got a job on £12 per hour but there were 2 vacancies and the other one was for a eastern European on £8 per hour, a polish guy got the other job.
     
  14. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Isn't that just supply and demand? I mean you can always start your own business, get the sales in, pay your costs and see how much is left to pay staff wages and if lucky something left for yourself :)

    Cameron is right, chucking money and keeping the dependency created by many successive governments, is like a drug dealer keeping their addicts attached to them. It is not sustainable, unnecessary, and actually not caring as it doesn't help anyone move forwards and stand on their own two feet...I find it cruel to 'help' people like that in the long term...Nothing wrong with a short term safety net, and as I have consistently posted I think it should be increased to 70% of your last four years average earnings for no more than 18 months....But that is it....A good safety net...
     
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  15. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    And what do you propose? Keep chucking money at it and leave them alone like some forgotten group? Nah, that is what I would call cruel...really cruel...
     
  16. potshot

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    What I call cruel is where somebody is 5 minutes late for a job centre appointment then they have their benefit stopped for 2 weeks. If the same rules applied to MP's who most of them suck off public purse for most of their life and get a free house, they would never get paid anything.
     
  17. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Absolute rubbish!

    Tax avoidance is a NOT estimated at anywhere near £38 billion (at least not by anyone credible). There are some weird people out there (a hypocritical retired accountant bring the most vociferous) who like to define tax avoidance as 'people paying less tax than I think they should' but that is neither fair or relevant.

    Further, tax avoidance includes things like ISAs, payments to pensions etc - perfectly reasonable means of allowing individuals to save their own money more efficiently and reduce their dependence on the state (which already has far too many people dependent on it).

    It seems you've naively been lulled into believing that tax avoidance is about millionaires....
    :facepalm:

    Tax avoidance is about people who have earned their own money legally being allowed to keep more of that money. That's quite different from (unemployment) benefits which is a payment from someone else's money that has not been 'earned'. The two are quite different.

    Who does?

    That's because governments have continually hidden the true cost of pensions - yet the public sector final salary schemes continue to cost the tax payer tens of billions every year.....
     
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    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  18. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Utter rubbish (at least not a valid or sensible measure of unemployment).

    And yet when the government propose requiring claimants to do certain jobs in order to receive benefits the 'left' are up in arms about 'slave labour', when in fact this is exactly what they need to demonstrate that they can be reliable and hold down a job.

    Maybe you should vote UKIP if you want this changed....
     
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  19. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Its not a hard and fast rule, it part of an arsenal of tools to prepare people. Especially useful for those who are wilfully uncompliant.

    When you hold down a job punctuality is a highly valued attribute. Get up, have a shave, a wash, iron your shirt, polish your shoes, and be on time. Doesn't cost anything, but unfortunately does seem to require training for some.

    I find it rude when someone is late for a meeting with me, and don't take kindly to that. It has got to be learned.
     
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  20. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Tax evasion is a cost but not avoidance. Its equivalent to saying the state lost £38 billion in speeding fines because the drivers were all sticking to the legal speed limit. You seem to be suggesting that everyone should speed in order to pay the fines or they are being greedy.

    The £38 billion was an over estimate anyway. Its a fraction of that. The high earners (1%) now pay 30% of all tax in this country. Under labour they paid 20%. The tax payers alliance have produced those figures.

    Soaking the rich doesn't work. I'm sure you can see the mess that Hollande has made in France.

    A large part of spending is pensions, but there is also health education and more importantly the interest on the deficit which is as much as the entire education bill. The sooner people realise that there isn't a money tree the quicker we can decide what parts of the welfare state will need to be dismantled.
     
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  21. Cliff

    Cliff
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    And, people incorrectly think that tax avoidance means tax not paid, whereas tax may be paid but in another country at a lower rate.*

    *Multinational companies
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2014
  22. tapzilla2k

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    Fine and dandy if the person is fit and well. Not so great for those with mental health problems found fit for work by the Work Capability Assessment which is broken (it's incapable of properly assessing complex mental health problems). And then we move to the disabled who also get a raw deal out of the WCA. I know of a few people with cerebral palsy who were told by ATOS their conditions would improve going against all medical evidence thus they are fit for work. They want to work, though they don't have the right support to help them back into work. It's time people put the minority of determined fraudsters aside and actually looked at the reality of what's going on with Iain Duncan Smith's DWP. Also I hope nobody here falls on hard times and has to face the WCA in it's current form, you may have paid taxes, but don't expect to get anything.

    Still means the Treasury is not getting tax due on money earned in the UK via UK consumers spending money on goods and services. It might be legal, but it's morally questionable to profit off a country and then avoid paying a fair rate of tax on that profit etc
     
  23. sidicks

    sidicks
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    1) the tax is NOT due
    2) the UK benefits in reverse, from other companies trading in this country that pay tax here, which then offsets their tax bills in their home country.
     
  24. karkus30

    karkus30
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    To your first paragraph much of it I agree with. Paying taxes doesn't entitle you to anything by the way. If people understood that it would make change easier. I paid taxes for 35 years-much of it in the mid/upper tax band. I have no kids. I don't use the NHS except where forced to. I've saved and been prudent. But I'm not going to be receiving any benefits even though I have no earnings. I wouldn't take them and I don't expect them. I knew it was robbery, but was powerless to stop the state.

    There is no 'tax due'. Corporate businesses don't pay tax-how many times does this have to be said ? The companies are free to place themselves in the lowest tax area. This benefits all their customers, employees and shareholders.
     
  25. potshot

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    I hope non you right wingers ever fall ill and have to rely on the state. You will be in for a shock and they we would quickly see your attitude change.
     
  26. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Who is this aimed at and is there any rational explanation that should go with it?
     
  27. karkus30

    karkus30
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    But what do you mean ? Why would anyone be in for a shock ? Why would it change attitudes ?
     
  28. potshot

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    If you don't understand I am not going to explain it to you.
     
  29. sidicks

    sidicks
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    It seems you're determined to make offensive remarks and misrepresent what other people believe / have said - if you aren't prepared to back up your comments then go away!

    This is meant to be a discussion forum, not an ill-informed ranting board...
    :nono:
     
  30. karkus30

    karkus30
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    You haven't given any explanation so I have no idea what you are alluding to ?

    Is it because the state has poor provision ? Do you think we would be shocked at the states service ? Why would you think that would change attitudes ?

    I really don't know what you mean because you haven't said. It sounds like a version of "you'll get yours just wait and see " but I already know what the state provision is and that's why I oppose it.
     

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