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Behringer Feedback Destroyer - I'm thinking of getting one.

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by SOUNDSTYLE, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    I've heard that Couch potato has one and would like to know how he's got on with it.
    I wanted to PM him but he seems to have it disabled.
    I've read about it and it seems way to complicated to set up for me, but maybe it's easier when you have the BFD in front of you, where you can visualise it better.
    I've read that there is a slight delay when a signal passes through the BFD but this can be compensated by adding an extra foot to the positioning of your speakers, through your surround processor.

    What I would like to know is how is it connected to the subwoofer?
    I use both hi and low level connections (which everyone must know about by now:D): Would these still be connected to the subwoofer or would it be impossible to use the sub for both and only for low level?

    (My Arcam 8R + 8P is connected to my Velodyne CHT-15's high-level connections for music, and is also connected for low-level from my Denon surround processor for movies.)

    Any help will be appreciated, but I have a feeling that it will be too complicated for me to set up.
     
  2. GaryG

    GaryG
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    A BFD is only suitable for line-level input, you connect your source to the BFD and then the BFD to your sub.

    I'm not familiar with your equipment so can't make a recommendation with regard to using it for both Hi-Fi and HT.
     
  3. GaryG

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    Just did a search on your kit. Why not use a 2-into-1 phono Y adaptor (YW39N part number at www.maplin.co.uk) and split the preamplifier output into two to feed your power amp and sub (or BFD into sub)?
     
  4. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    Thanks for replying.

    I don't understand a lot about connections etc. and don't quite understand what you mean.

    So I'm connecting from the Arcam to the BFD (but from where on the Arcam and using the 8R or 8P?) and then to the sub.

    There's then the connection from the Denon for low-level which it doesn't except (if I read your post correctly) which means that I won't be able to use it for movies, which won't be good?:(
     
  5. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Hey Soundstyle,

    What area are you in, perhaps someone would be kind enough to come round and help you with that Velo. CHT-15.

    Cheers
    Kev
     
  6. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    Mozzer
    I've connected the subwoofer up and it's doing it's job, but the problem is my room which is causing boomy bass which means that I'm not getting the low down which I can get.

    I've moved the sub round the room and tried as many places as possible (where possible due to the size of the room) but I always get boomy bass at the higher frequencies and nothing will change that apart from redecorating and fitting absorbing panels all round the room (but will it work and how much will it cost?) or getting one of these destroyers which will cut the high frequencies which is causing the problems.

    I'm just trying to picture how it will connect to my system and if I can connect from my Denon surround amp (low-level) and high-level from my Arcam's.

    I've had a look on quite a few different sites to try and find a picture of the rear of the BFD but there don't seem to be any.
     
  7. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Okay let's start at the begining, and take this one step at a time.

    The BFD has inputs and outputs that use 1/4" jack plugs and XLR balanced connectors. For your system you will need to use 1/4" jack plugs with a phono to 1/4" jack connector from Maplins.

    The BFD works with line-level signals so with your current setup it would only equalise signals from your Denon because your Arcam is connected to your sub via the high-level inputs.

    Your first problem is sorting out how your sub is connected to your system so that you only use the line-level inputs on your sub. So before we go any further down the route of using a BFD let's sort out your sub connection.

    I presume you want to use the sub for both HT and Music, so do you use a single DVD player for both, or a separate CD player for music?
     
  8. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    My system:
    Denon 2700 surround amp
    Pioneer DV717 dvd player
    Monitor Audio (MA) 703 PMC
    MA Silver 3 rears
    MA 750CC centre
    ARcam 8R and 8P
    ARcam 8 cd player
    Velodyne CHT-15 subwoofer

    I have it set up so that I can just use the ARcam's and main speakers for music and then when I want to watch a movie, the Denon runs the centre and rear speakers and the Arcams the main.

    The Denon (from the subwoofer out) is connected to the Vel for low-level, and connected from the 2nd speaker terminals on the 8P to the high-level connections on the Vel.

    When I just want to listen to music I switch the 2nd speaker terminals in on the 8P and when I want to watch a movie, I switch them out, or else the sub would be getting high and low level signals when watching a movie, which the Velodyne manual does not recommend.

    I hope that makes sense. :)

    Will it be possible to use the BFD for both high and low connections?
     
  9. buns

    buns
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    Couch potato was deleted in a recent server whooooops..... his new ID is steve bate.

    ad
     
  10. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    Thanks for that. I've PM'd him.
     
  11. GaryG

    GaryG
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    I have a simlar setup, but with different equipment, so don't panic we'll have you up and running in no time.

    So, although you haven't explicitly stated it I'm assuming that your CD player is used for music and is connected directly to your Arcam and that your DVD player is connected directly to your Denon, if this assumption is wrong let me know and we'll go throught it again with the right setup.


    I need a little more detail about your CD player and Denon.

    How many DIGITAL OUTPUTS and their type (Coax, Toslink etc) are there on your CD Player.

    How many ANALOGUE OUTPUTS are there on your CD Player.

    How many DIGITAL INPUTS and their type (Coax, Toslink etc) are there on your Denon.
     
  12. Steve Bate

    Steve Bate
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    Sorry didn't see this thread, too busy playing with my new toy... BG808s :D

    Gary has pretty much answered all the points well. Dont worry about being complex, it's actually quite easy to use if you follow this link and search for bfd here you wont have any problems.

    My Cinema room is 80% movies although I do listen to some music in there and it's fine, I've not noticed any problems. I had a major peak at 35hz which was not only boomy but was also affecting higher freqs, something to do with harmonics? The BFD with one filter engaged cured it, it does take some playing around and lots and I mean lots of measuring SPL's with freqs from 16-80hz but it was deffinately worthwhile for me.

    £90'ish is pretty cheap when you consider how much room treatments are.

    Does this help?

    Steve
     
  13. Rob

    Rob
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    Interesting reading,

    just caught this thread about the BFD. I've also been toying with the idea of one of these. I'm also getting a peak of around +12Db at 36Hz, and about +8Db at around 70 Hz.This seems to happen, regardless of where in the room the sub is situated. These are just raw SPL readings made from test tones. Think I may just go ahead and order one and see if it helps.

    Regards Rob.
     
  14. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    You're correct about the cd player being connected directly to my Arcam and my dvd player is connected directly to my Denon.

    CD player digital outputs = one (I think it's coaxial as it mentions using 75 ohm cable). It's already used and connected to my minidisc recorder, but I can always remove it.

    CD player analogue outputs = Two sets of audio outputs, with one being used to connect to my ARcam amp.

    Denon digital inputs = 2 coaxial and 1 optical (dvd player connected to one of the coaxial).

    Hope that helps.

    Does any other company sell the BFD other than this one?
    http://www.easternelectronics.co.uk/behringerdigit.htm
     
  15. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    Thanks for posting Steve.
    What is the BG808? It must be something big and powerful due to the :D
     
  16. GaryG

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    Right let's get the obvious connection out of the way first which is connecting your CD player directly to the Denon (using the digital coaxial iinput) and using direct mode.

    I don't know what solutions you have and haven't tried so bear with me if I'm suggesting things you have already tried and disimissed (probably on sound quality). However, if you haven't tried the various options I'm suggesting give them a go just to rule them out, don't go on heresay, make sure, by listening for yourself.

    So, have you tried this option?

    I came across the following review from an audiophile at www.audioreview.com/A-V,Receivers/Denon,AVR-2700/PRD_118556_2718crx.aspx

     
  17. Steve Bate

    Steve Bate
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    75kg of 8" CRT.

    Steve
     
  18. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    Before I bought my system about three years ago I had a demo and had a listen with the cd player connected to the Denon and ARcam to see which was better and I found the ARcam to have a smoother sound.

    I'll give it a go though. You never know, my tastes might have changed.
     
  19. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    If you do go ahead and get one it will be interesting to know how you get on.
     
  20. GaryG

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    I would expect the CD to Arcam connection to sound the best, but let's await your confirmation of that before we move on.

    While you're fiddling, information I will need for later is: Is it possible to disable or switch of the L/R and Surround channels and just leave the sub playing when watching a DVD?
     
  21. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    I don't know if I'm hearing things or even if I connected it up properly but it sounds brilliant: No boomy bass. I had to turn the subwoofer up and it still stayed smooth????

    I connected the coaxial cable from my cd player (which was connected to the minidisc recorder) and put it into the coaxial input on the Denon. I went into the Denon's menu and switched the coaxial input to 'cd' . Did I have to do that?

    I then pressed 'cd' on the Denon's front panel, and then 'direct'.
    Did I have to do this?

    What I can't work out is how the sound from the cd player is getting to the amps through the Denon's Burr Brown decoding chip, as the cd player is connected from it's audio outputs to the 'cd inputs' on the 8R .

    It sounds as if the cd player's decoding chip is not very good if I'm hearing what I'm hearing. To make sure I'll have to disconnect the coaxial cable from the Denon and see what sound I get.

    If I use this set up it means that I won't be able to record digitally onto my minidisc recorder without disconnecting from the Denon each time?

    I could buy a better cd player which has a better decoding chip.

    Was I hearing things or was the sound better? If I've connected it up properly and the sound was reaching the ARcam amps from the Denon then the sound was a lot better, but how did it get there?

    I was thinking that I had to select 'AV/DVD' on my ARcam 8R (which I use when watching a movie) but there wasn't any sound coming through so I selected 'cd' on the 8R and there the sound was and it sounded great.

    But was I hearing things? Your mind can play tricks when you want to hear a difference!

    If I have connected it correctly it means that from now on when I want to listen to music I will have to switch the Denon on each time, which is a bit of a pain.

    Concerning the 'disabling' or 'switching off' of my main and rear speakers and just letting the sub run on it's own: What about the centre?

    I can disconnect all the speaker cables. Thinking about it, as the sound for the main speakers is passed to my Arcam amps, I can have the sound turned right down for the Arcams which will sort the main speakers out as no sound will be getting through (I think); the rears I can disconnect, but what about the centre?

    I'm getting stressed thinking about it all (as most of this is way over my head), but if it means getting better sound then I'm all for it and appreciate all the effort you're putting in.

    Thanks

    P.S I've switched the Denon off and it still sounds good.
    This is getting weird:eek:
    I must be hearing things.:confused:

    I don't know the best way to go now.

    P.P.S When I had the demo I think the salesman might have connected to the Denon from the cd player's audio outs. So I was only hearing the difference between the Denon and ARcam amps not the decoding chips.
     
  22. GaryG

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    Whooooaaaaa!!!! Slow down.

    Let's break this down to see what is going on.

     
  23. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    My subwoofer is nearly four weeks old and I haven't used it that much, but the last week I have been listening to a lot more music than usual and I think it has loosened up and it does integrate better than it did.

    The Denon manual is not that good and says nothing about the 'direct' button and what it does.

    This morning I decided to check all connections again and discovered that the coaxial cable was not connected tightly enough:blush:
    My equipment is hard to get to.

    The sound is very similar to my cd player but the bass coming from the Denon to the sub is too powerful and I only have the volume at 1.

    I prefer the sound of the sub when connected to the high-level connections where I have the volume at between 4 and 5. You don't get the thump in the chest but I prefer it that way, compared to the overpowering bass from the Denon.
     
  24. Flimber

    Flimber
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    Only one of these.

    :D

    Mike.
     
  25. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    How much?:eek:
     
  26. GaryG

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    I fogot to mention, the sub should be switched off for the comparison between the Denon and the Arcam. What we're looking to establish is which connection sounds the best (width of sounstage, imaging, tonal balance etc). Once that has been decided we can then move on to dealing with the sub.

    If, now that the sub is run-in, you are happy with the sound and no longer require a BFD to equalise the response then that's fine, you can continue to use the high-level inputs on the sub. On the other hand if you do want to use a BFD then the high-level inputs can't be used and we will need to move on.

    If you run the tests again and find that you prefer the CD connected directly to the 8R that's okay, we just need to try another approach, there's more than one way of doing this, it just means a bit more fiddling.
     
  27. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    I have a question.
    When I watch a movie I have the sound on the 8R at the half way mark and control the sound using the Denon's volume which is usually at -12

    When listening to the cd player through the denon how would you go about setting the volume?

    Should I set it at the half way mark on the 8R and then adjust the sound using the denon volume or have the 8R at a lower volume.

    I'm not too sure which way to go.

    Thanks
     
  28. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Sorry I haven't posted sooner I've not been able to login to the forum, apparently I was deleted from the forum database as a result of the server problem last night. Just re-registered, fortunately my old username was still available.

    Your Arcam combination can be treated as a single box that just happens to have some switches and a volume control which is now acting as the L/R channel amps for the Denon. Just remember that for use with the 'AV/DVD' input on the 8R (which is currently connected to the Denon) you have to set the volume to half-way. This in effect is setting the sensitivity of the box to match the output of the Denon. Once that's done the actual controlling of the volume should be via the volume control on the Denon.

    As a side note it's possible that the output level of your CD player is higher than the output level of the DVD player in which case you would turn down the volume on the Denon to compensate.

    (Some AV amps have adjustable input sensitivity for the various inputs to ensure that the level stays the same when switching between inputs, maybe your Denon has this facility, have a look in the manual.)
     
  29. SOUNDSTYLE

    SOUNDSTYLE
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    I prefer the sound of the cd player connected directly to the Arcam: it produces lower bass than the Denon.
    My speakers produce good low down bass which I haven't heard for a while because I've always had a subwoofer connected, but there are still bass notes which the speakers can't produce, especially on dance tracks.
    The bass (from subwoofer) when watching a movie is still too boomy though.
     
  30. GaryG

    GaryG
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    With the CD connected to the 8R we now need to look at the options available to connect the CD to the sub without using the high-level inputs.

    Remember a while back I asked if you could switch off all the channels on the Denon except the sub, it this possible without disconnecting leads? eg. some sort of channel on/off/mute switch?

    The reason for asking this is that one possible solution is to connect the 'spare' analogue outputs on the CD player to an auxilary input on the Denon thus feeding a signal to the sub (assuming the Denon has the bass management to do this). This method of connection would, however, be playing music through the surround channels as well, unless of course the 'direct' option disables the surround channels but still re-directs bass to the sub.

    This is probably a lot to take in so read it a few times and then we can step through it.
     

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