BBC1 HD frame order judder

TCW

Standard Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
10
Reaction score
0
Points
1
I often record BBC1 HD with a Hauppauge Win TV HVR 4400. Up until recently, the transport streams played back perfectly in both software (I am using Cyberlink Power DVD, Smart Cutter, Nero and others), and on hardware. For hardware viewing I usually clean up the stream with TsRemux (and/or Smart Cutter), and then create a blu ray with multiAVCHD (which I think in turn uses tsMuxer), and burn to a Verbatim BD-RE with ImgBurn so I can watch in the lounge rather than on the PC.

Until recently the streams have played back perfectly every time on a Sony BDP S380, no problems at all. However, suddenly (July 2012) I am getting really bad judder. I have not changed any hardware. Using freeze frame it looks as though the frames are being played back out of order. Every 7th frame, the stream jumps two frames rather than one, then goes back and plays the frame it has skipped, then resumes. It does this for the whole file. In software the exact same streams are playing back no problem! Incredibly, the exact same blu ray disc plays fine on a PC with Cyberlink PowerDVD, but not in the blu ray player! This has all suddenly started happening without any changes to hardware or software, having been okay for years up to now.

I know the BBC have been making changes to do with Wimbledon and the Olympics, and have boosted the resolution of BBC1 HD to 1920x1080, but I can't see why this would have any effect, but I suspect it is something to do with the BBC's encoders, since ITV HD and Channel 4 HD are still working fine just as before with no issues (and at the same resolution). If it is something to do with the BBC changing their encoders, it is beyond my level of understanding to get any further.

I have tried creating the blu ray with multiAVCHD and also with Arcsoft Totalmedia Studio 3 (demo version). I have also tried cleaning the stream with VideoReDo H.264 v4.2 (demo) and TSDoctor (demo). I'd have bought one of these if they'd fixed it, but no effect. Same result every time - no trouble on the PC, frames not in the right order on the Sony!

Is anyone out there seeing the same effect, and does anyone have a fix?

Looks like I'm watching on the PC for the forseeable future...
 
I can see a loose connection with the main forum topic, Satellite TV, but can see none at all with the sub-forum topic, Freesat.
Does it have any?
 
when did BBC change the res of BBC1HD? Does this now mean that they ahve changed Freeview too, or have they finally realised they can provide a image to non freeview platforms.
 
logiciel - very sorry about this. I did spend quite a bit of time wondering where to post it. Satellite TV looked the best match, and within that, since I don't even have Sky, Freesat won by elimination. However I now realise that I don't have to pick a sub-forum, when I thought I did - I could have just left it in Satellite TV. Please accept my apologies for this, should I delete and re-start, or is it possible to move it? Thanks for pointing this out.
 
Thank you for that - and it's perfectly OK, no need to apologise.
General Satellite is the right forum for it - so it's going there, and I hope you get a good response.
 
icstm - freesat resolution was still 1440x1080 towards the end of May, but was 1920x1080 on 14 July. When exactly it changed I don't know, and I don't know about the freeview res either I'm afraid.

Last year the resolution changed for Wimbledon in connection with a 3D test, but changed back again after Wimbledon. This year I am guessing they changed it for Wimbledon but have not changed it back pending the Olympics, what will happen after that I can't say.

To be honest I don't think this has anything to do with the problem, other than it being evidence that the Beeb have changed their encoders.
 
i can record a small section via pc if you want to try that, pure 1:1 recording not digital>analogue>digital. Dont know if the beeb are using diffrent streams for sat and terrestrial?

if your still experiencing judder it may simply be codec deinterlacing issue.

what software is doing the initial recording?
 
Last edited:
Hi 1080 JB and thanks. I'm already recording on a PC with WinTV 7.0.3 that comes with the Hauppauge HVR 4400 PCI-e card, and have had this setup working for well over a year with no trouble until the last month or so. I'm not going to analogue at any point - just cleaning the stream, remuxing to m2ts and burning it onto a BD-RE. I only have the hardware to record the satellite stream. I am currently trying a complete re-code of the stream with Nero Video to see if that works, but even if it does this will not be a satisfactory solution because it takes so long and there will also be some loss of quality in the re-coding.
 
Hi 1080 JB and thanks. I'm already recording on a PC with WinTV 7.0.3 that comes with the Hauppauge HVR 4400 PCI-e card, and have had this setup working for well over a year with no trouble until the last month or so. I'm not going to analogue at any point - just cleaning the stream, remuxing to m2ts and burning it onto a BD-RE. I only have the hardware to record the satellite stream. I am currently trying a complete re-code of the stream with Nero Video to see if that works, but even if it does this will not be a satisfactory solution because it takes so long and there will also be some loss of quality in the re-coding.

for bluray compliance a re-encode will be required though
 
Last edited:
1080JB - I agree that a re-code will probably fix it (I'll find out later on today when Nero has churned through about 6 hours processing!), but the DVB-S2 transport stream should play fine on a blu ray player after reformatting to .m2ts without re-coding. The ITVHD and Channel 4HD streams work fine without re-coding, as did the BBC's until very recently.
 
1080JB - I agree that a re-code will probably fix it (I'll find out later on today when Nero has churned through about 6 hours processing!), but the DVB-S2 transport stream should play fine on a blu ray player after reformatting to .m2ts without re-coding. The ITVHD and Channel 4HD streams work fine without re-coding, as did the BBC's until very recently.

all m2ts is though is a container, just like MKV or TS, some players might play them within certain tolerences. Personally if i was re-encoding i would use BDrebuilder. It uses the x264 encoder. Its 1 of the best encoders out there, gives cinevision/mainconcept and cinemacraft HDe a run for there money, and they cost 10's of thousands. Use TSmuxer to create the fake bluray, then open this in BDrebuilder and select Highest (very slow) and uncheck one pass options.

theres a thread on the doom9.org forums containing everything you need to install, haali media spliter, ffdshow etc.
 
Last edited:
Many thanks for the tip on BDrebuilder; it looks good and I will definitely check it out. In the meantime I'll keep looking for a way to get the original stream to play, if only to save the time on re-coding, (and a bit of quality, though I doubt the drop will be noticeable). It is frustrating that it plays, apart from the frame order glitch...
 
Many thanks for the tip on BDrebuilder; it looks good and I will definitely check it out. In the meantime I'll keep looking for a way to get the original stream to play, if only to save the time on re-coding, (and a bit of quality, though I doubt the drop will be noticeable). It is frustrating that it plays, apart from the frame order glitch...

is your bd player detecting it as 25fps interlaced
 
is your bd player detecting it as 25fps interlaced

Good call! The Sony is reporting the playback as 1080/50p, which clearly it isn't, and not even part of blu ray standard. According to some googling Sony added support for playback of 1080/50p in a firmware update in 2011 to enable compatibility with their camcorders. (Having said that, the Sony also thinks discs that play fine are 1080/50p when really they aren't, but definitely sounds like you're onto something...)

I will do some digging into settings in the Sony and also in multiAVCHD to see if I can get the thing to realise that it's playing 25fps interlaced. I have just checked and am on latest Sony firmware.
 
Good call! The Sony is reporting the playback as 1080/50p, which clearly it isn't, and not even part of blu ray standard. According to some googling Sony added support for playback of 1080/50p in a firmware update in 2011 to enable compatibility with their camcorders. (Having said that, the Sony also thinks discs that play fine are 1080/50p when really they aren't, but definitely sounds like you're onto something...)

I will do some digging into settings in the Sony and also in multiAVCHD to see if I can get the thing to realise that it's playing 25fps interlaced. I have just checked and am on latest Sony firmware.

open the ts in tsmuxer and change the profile level to 4.0 if its 4.1 and visa-versa, checking ftp 25 cant hurt either then save as either a bluray disc or avchd disk
 
open the ts in tsmuxer and change the profile level to 4.0 if its 4.1 and visa-versa, checking ftp 25 cant hurt either then save as either a bluray disc or avchd disk

Thanks for that but sadly it didn't work, every 7th frame still out of order, and the Sony still reporting the video as 1080/50p. The Sony just can't take a hint...
 
Mystery solved: the BBC has changed to coding with 7 consecutive B frames separated by one I or P frame. You can see this if you open the files in avidemux or other software that gives the frame type. This explains the 8 frame judder pattern observed in the Sony player. The blu ray standard is no more than 3 consecutive B frames. I would like to thank wavelet from another forum for finding the answer, but sadly this seems to mean there is no way round other than to re-code or get lucky with a blu ray player that will play non-compliant files.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom