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BBC World Snooker

Discussion in 'TVs' started by pob, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. pob

    pob
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    Hi,

    My brother works at the Crucible Theatre in Sheffield and the Snooker is due to start there at the weekend. He's just told me that a 'BBC High-Definition Outside Broadcast' van has arrived. I've asked him to get talking to the BBC guys to try and find out more info.

    Cheers

    Phil
     
  2. Kramer

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    Very interesting.....yes keep us posted :smashin:
     
  3. Muf

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    Trying to put pieces together here.
    I read on another forum that there will be a HD broadcast during the MIP TV forum April 11-15 2005 (whatever MIP is). This is to be on 33 East which is where the BBC HD test came from last year.

    Jim.

    PS. just found this:
    http://www.eutelsat.com/news/compress/en/2005/pdf/pr0605.pdf
     
  4. Abstrakt

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    Hi Jim,

    An HD feed from the MipTV market went up last Friday on Eurobird 3 at 33° East:

    11472 H, SR: 27127, FEC: 1/2
    VPID: 528, APID: 529, ID: "Eutelsat-MipTV"

    I can't verify whether the feed is still active though, as I’m not in Rome at the moment.

    More info about MipTV: www.miptv.com

    Cheers.
     
  5. Abstrakt

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    Pob,

    If the OB van did not arrive until today this is definitely not related to the aforementioned MipTV feed. So look out for a high def snooker feed come this weekend. Lately the BBC has been using 12.5° West for the bulk of its OB’s… that might be a good place to start looking.

    It would certainly help if your brother could ask one of the SNG operators what satellite they are uplinking to. ;)

    Cheers.
     
  6. Nick_UK

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    It is the BBC's aim to make all programmes in HD by 2010. Unfortunately, they have not given any date for when they might be shown here. Don't forget that the BBC exports a lot of programmes abroad, and countries like America and Australia already have HDTV. It's good revenue for them.
     
  7. Muf

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    Hi Abstrakt,
    Thanks for the info. Yes, it is still active. I just tuned in, all BBC material so far, Proms, opera etc.

    Jim.
     
  8. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    The BBC have one older OB unit converted for HD - Unit 2.

    This was originally a "Type 8" PAL analogue truck built by Quantel-Link in the early 90s. They made a number of them - and they were all converted to digital component widescreen by the late 90s.

    They are a great medium sized design - and have enough cameras to be pretty powerful, but are small enough to park easily in London. The internal truck layout is pretty popular with the production teams who use it and the te communications gear, air conditioning, bodywork etc. are all still in pretty good condition - so upgrading one of these trucks' video infrastructure to HD made sense (especially financiall) - rather than scrapping them for a new truck.

    Unit 2 mainly does Songs of Praise, Last Night of the Proms etc. - and can run in either HD or SD - it depends on the production.

    I believe the Beeb have also commissioned a second HD truck - not sure if it has arrived yet. It could be either this new truck, or Unit 2, at the Snooker.

    One word of caution - just because a studio or OB unit is HD capable, there is no reason to believe it is actually running HD. Any truck or studio the Beeb build that is HD capable will also be capable of running in standard definition.

    Given that the snooker is a multiple output event (there is the BBCi interactive service as well as network output) - I suspect that the truck will be running standard definition, as having to have multiple down-converters from HD to SD would be a bit expensive, and standard def VT/Disc servers are probably still cheaper?

    Then again, perhaps they'll use it as an HD learning exercise - after all the move to colour made snooker into a TV sport!
     
  9. Nick_UK

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    Who can forget those immortal words of the BBC commentator ?

    "For those of you watching in black & white, and wondering where is the pink - it's behind the brown" :D
     
  10. eviljohn2

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    The cruel irony is that I still have to watch the snooker in B&W as I can't get a colour signal in my room and nobody else in the house will tolerate it. :(
     
  11. thudspud

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    Hi guys.

    Just got back to the crucible after a day off yesterday and the BBC boys are playing around with hi def cameras in the auditorium so maybe they will be doing hi def test transmissions, Will try and find a friendly one of them to have a word with and find out more.

    Cheers

    Chris
     
  12. Stephen Neal

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    It is entirely possible - however it is also entirely possible that they are running the HD cameras in SD mode - as they do with Songs of Praise. Most HD cameras on sale these days can also output a very high quality standard def signal (better than an SD camera in many cases - though often the low-light performance isn't quite as good)

    Snooker isn't as "replay-heavy" as other sports, so doing the coverag in HD may not be as expensive as football or rugby (which would require a pile of HD disc servers for slowmotion replay from multiple angles)

    AIUI the Snooker is an independent (i.e. not BBC Sport in-house) production, though BBC Resources have the contract to provide facilities. Maybe the indy producing it wants to see what HD is all about.

    Still think one of the likeliest possibilities is that they are using their HD truck in SD though!
     
  13. thudspud

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    Just had a look and the HD unit is UNIT 2.
     
  14. Stephen Neal

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    Yep - as I mentioned above that is a 12-15 year old unit which is now in it's second refurb. (They built the bodywork and aircon to last!) It was a Type VIII design - which they made quite a few of - but only one has been converted for HD use

    It is running with Sony HD cameras - but many shows use it in standard definition mode - it can effectively slot in on most of the programmes that a standard def Type VIII would be used for.

    (It is particularly suited to music productions though - as it got an improved sound desk when it was re-furbed)
     
  15. Rimmer

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    Presumably this is due to the pixels on the CCD sensor of the HD camera being smaller, and therefore more susceptible to noise? I wonder what the signal to noise ratio is like on Thomson's 9MP HD cameras. Presumably it will be lower than that of a native 720p or 1080i camera, but the effective resolution will be higher?

    It's a pity that HD cameras aren't used more often on UK TV broadcasts, even if they are simply downconverting in-camera to SD. HD cameras produce visibly sharper, less noisy pictures, and the pictures compress better. While it is often argued that some SD sources look better on PAL than on digital SDTV, in my experience HD sources always look better on digital SDTV.
     
  16. Hellicopter

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    BBC Snooker feeds now up on 7E as follows:-

    11043V 6666 7/8 Sheffield Table 1
    11052v 6666 7/8 Sheffield Table 2

    Only watching in SD so is it in HD?

    Alan
     
  17. Muf

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    Hello Alan, I just tuned in, unfortunately they are not HD feeds. Both channels are 720 x 576, 4.2.2, 4:3 anamorphic. The Table 1 channel is 9.6 Mbps and Table 2 is 4.9 Mbps.

    Jim
     
  18. Dutch

    Dutch
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    How great it would be if the signal reaching our Sky boxes was anything like 9.6 Mbps - a lot of folk would think HD had come early!

    Steve
     
  19. Abstrakt

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    In addition to the high bitrate, the 4:2:2 sampling rate really makes a big difference here.

    Sky's DigiBoxes would of course choke on this format, since they can only handle 4:2:0 like most other consumer satellite receivers. But that’s where an HTPC with the Moonlight-Elecard codec really comes in handy... ;)
     
  20. Stephen Neal

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    Yep - if you have a 2/3" sensor and instead of having 576 lines of sensors, you have 720, 1080, or 4000 (in the case of the Philips/Thomson) lines then each sensor site in the higher res cameras is smaller, and thus capturing less light/fewer photons, and thus is likely to be noisier for a given sensor technology.

    Low light performance is one area where SD cameras still beat HD in an SD vs HD competition.
    If you mean the LDK 6000 then it might say Thomson on the side - but it is definitely a Philips camera! (Thomson bought the broadcast arm of Philips quite recently - and then promptly retired all but one of the Thomson TTV camera range - the Digital Triax 1707 - and replaced them with the Philips/BTS LDK series - which were massively better - both SD and HD)

    I suspect that the sensitivity as a 4000 line camera will be worse, but when you average the lines together to create a 720 or 1080 line image from them you'll also be averaging the noise away, so the 720/1080 line signal will be less noisy than the raw one - and may well be cleaner than that from a 720 or 1080 line native sensor.
    I think you will see HD cameras used increasingly - as TV companies by HD cameras and lenses but run them in SD either through SD galleries awaiting upgrades, or through switchable galleries running in SD mode.

    HD cameras downconverted to SD benefit from HD level noise averaging away - and thus generating cleaner SD pictures than SD cameras, as well as HD aperture correction looking far less harsh when downconverted to SD, when compared to SD aperture correction (aka sharpness - detail enhancement etc.)

    This is comparing apples with oranges.

    The SD via PAL looking better than SD via SDTV is purely a function of the SDTV compression levels. SD via SDTV will look MUCH better than SD via PAL if the SDTV isn't over compressed - the removal of subcarrier artefacts and the increased chroma resolution of SDTV mean it will always beat PAL if not overcompressed. However these days loads of pre-filtering (have you seen ITV2 and ITV3?) is introduced to reduce blocking artefacts (instead you get a soft and mushy picture) on highly compressed circuits.

    HD downconversions look better than SD originated material pretty universally.
     
  21. Starburst

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    Alas when SKY1 was being broadcast at around 8Mbits earlier this year a slight majority of SKY+ users (on the DS forum) were complaining about the disk capacity required to record it:(
     
  22. Dutch

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    D'oh! :suicide:


    Steve
     

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